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What improvements to Magura style hydraulic rim brakes are needed?


Heatsink

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Hi all,

It's Steve from Heatsink, back on the forum after a few years away!

I'm keen to expand my product designing into some brake related products which compliment the Heatsink range of brake pads, namely Hydraulic rim brake systems! I thinking of a lever, lever body, hosing, connections, slaves, clamps - Brake pads are already taken care of! I'm sure that you all have more experience and knowledge of using the variety of Magura '05 based brake systems than I do! I would love to hear your experiences and suggestions so I can piece together a possible product specification for what a Heatsink system should look like to fulfil rider needs. From speaking to riders at Tarty Days it appears that there are many great systems on the market but each have their flaws.

I'd love to hear your experience on Hydraulic rim brake systems:

  • What you dislike about these systems where they haven't performed as you expected?
  • What frustrates you about the weak points in their design?
  • What improvements do you wish were made?

If you can supply photos to clarify that would be excellent! Thanks in advance and I look forward to an interesting thread!

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The classic '04 Magura!

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The much imitated '05 Magura!

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Cast Echo Lever body

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Racing Line lever body + Trialtech lever

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Hope Trial Zone lever (Disc) for inspiration!

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Ill pick faults in each modal ive used and areas which they could be improved in my opinion. Not sure if this is what youre after?

'04 style magura - This is the best modal ive used, VERY solid build and feel at the lever, if i was to say anything lets it down id say the weight and lack of aftermarket levers for it. Easy to bleed. A modernised 2015/16 version of this lever body would be great (9/10)

'05 magura - Good brake, although has more flex than the 04 and cracks on the body, good range of after market levers. Again easy to bleed. (6/10)

'11 aweful brake was very disappinted with this. Huge amounts of flex, lack of aftermarket levers, complicated build, comes across cheap. Never bled this brake however. (4/10)

Raceline brake- pretty good brake, comes in some nice anodized colours which is good, lovely light build, pretty powerful, aftermarket levers avaliable, easy to bleed, doesnt crack, but has a fair amount of flex. (8/10)

I do understand that the flex comes with lever length and leverage ratio. All my brakes have been standard and have been used with more than one bike/frame/booster/no booster.

Hope this helps you out?

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Hey Steve,

I don't use maguras anymore, and it has been a long time since I have, but I do think the 04 lever style, 2 bolt clamp, with a better protected tpa design (similar to a Fresh products lever) would be the way to go.

The direct piston actuation was a much better design in my opinion, easier to bleed, simple and solid. Have a look at making the lever blade wider (ala magura MT5 / MT7 lever blade (it's so comfy)) with some better ergonomics. a flat back on the blade to reduce the number of cut fingers would be good as well.

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#1 Don't need to mention to avoid plastic elements if possible, especially bleeding bolts and clamps. You can always get people to buy spare parts for upgrades by making different designs/colours but not ruining their brakes.

#2 CNC'd over forged aluminium would be nice but more time/money consuming to produce. You'll need to consider what quality for the amount of money you want to provide cause in my opinion racing lines are too expensive and I am not sure if they sell as well as other cheaper brakes despite being of higher quality.

#3 2-bolt bar clamps are so much more comfortable than older single bolt ring clamps when you need to take your brake off for service. I used to hate it when my grips were stuck to the bars. Even a similar clamping system to the K2 stems maybe?

#4 The most comfortable blade I've ever had was an old dengura echo blade. Currently I have a dengura zoo blade but it's much wider and flat.. Some longer modification of the old dengura echo blades would be the best!

#5 Shrouded nuts instead of olives?

#6 Some kind of hose protection on the cross-over hose as nowadays most people don't use brake boosters and it feels terrible if you step on your cross-over while gapping..

#7 Flippable levers should be easier to produce as you will need only one type of adjustment for your cutting machines and they also give the end user two options to use. I've always appreciated this!

#8 Having in mind where the standard 05 magura levers usually crack, you should fillet any such potential corners, so a bit more rounded design.

I will keep adding points whenever something comes to my mind ;)

Edited by naset000kzk
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Racinglines are the ideal brake for me. Mine feel lovely and solid even with plastic backed pads and no brake booster.

Need regular maintenance I've found. If I dont keep mine lubricated with a silicone grease they start to feel lazy after a few months but a fresh bleed always seems to feel good.

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I probably won't ever use a rim brake again, but if I did.....basically an '04, best comfort, strength, power, quality. My Racing line caused way too much leverage/flex and the pivot point felt too far from the bars, felt like I needed 9 inch fingers, so I adjusted it in but that made the hooked end more mellow and my finger would slip off now and then. They seem well made but it's quite an extreme end of the scale. Never minded the feel of the '05 but they were too flimsy. I won't talk about the 2011 and 2014 Magura levers because they're shit in every possible way.

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Slaves made for splitters, one hose fitting and the bleed bolts on the side like them prototype brakes that were posted a while ago?(hashtag or try all)

I have tensile tocco levers, leaked from the off ran them for a few weeks till they needed bleeding. Consulted Tartybikes and was recommended new o-rings which solved that problem, the next was the pivot bolt snapped but this may of been from over tightening but had to modify them as you can't buy replacements. The pivot bolts like tensile, racing line and hope are a need over the old magura style single bolt.

I've found the Pistons in the tensiles need less maintenance than the racing line ones because they have push/dust seals at the top of them like magura Pistons so it keeps crap at bay from the silicon grease you always have to use with aluminium Pistons.

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04 maguras are my favourite. A split clamp and better lever would make it better though. I'm a fan of the 04, 05 and 2011 style maguras but I'm not keen on the bleed system of the 2011, the 05 type being prone to splitting isn't good and the lack of a split clamp on the 04 and 05 can be annoying.

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The new racing line pistons have a dust/wiper ring on them, much better design. As long as you keep the piston lubed with decent quality silicone grease they'll be faultless and won't leak/need regular bleeding

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04 - Lack of levers, kinda hard to get a pair in decent condition, shitty TPA. Works well though.

05 - Crack body a common problem but remove the tips that causes the crack then they're fine. Bolt through threaded body pivot was crap, I had to keep tightening mine up.

Tensile Tocco levers - Lever blade is a little too short and the ends are not as ergonomic as they should. Their split pivot bolt is much better than the bolt through threaded body design. I've never had to tighten my pivot bolt up. Also the split clamp should be a standard on all brakes. Already comes with aluminium TPA. Mine does leak but slowly, I last bled them about 2 months ago? I can still use them with the TP screwed in a bit. I'll be buying the Trialtech levers soon, them seem like a good match for these levels.

I'll be sticking with me Toccos for a while I think.

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The new racing line pistons have a dust/wiper ring on them, much better design. As long as you keep the piston lubed with decent quality silicone grease they'll be faultless and won't leak/need regular bleeding

I thought that when I saw them but then realised the oring is above each push seal so anything that'll grip between the oring may still scratch the inside of the lever body? And the fact there's two push seals is a bit silly. Although it could be to help guide the piston because of the shorter design than be actual push seals as they look a bit smaller than the orings.

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All well and good stating the 05 "cut the corner" mod prevents them cracking but I think crash resistance is also important in a trials orientated brake.

I've broken a good few lever bodies regardless of the mod due to a bail

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It kind of depends how cross-compatible you want it to be with existing spares and so on. If your only constraints are it needing to fit on a pair of bars and needs to somehow be fitted onto a 4-bolt mount on a frame there's a lot you can do (I guess you might want to stick with existing hardware/hose sizes to make life easier). The reason everyone uses 5ft long lever blades is because the braking system is limited by the piston sizes in the lever and the calipers, but I'd imagine you should be able to play around with ratios/pivot positions to allow you to use a shorter blade. There would still be some frame flex (unless part of the new style of mount involved an integrated booster of some sort), but you'd lose the flex associated with having a super long lever blade. I seem to remember reading somewhere that having the piston/cylinder orientated like the '05/'14 brakes should be stiffer compared to the '04/'11 design too, although I can't remember where that was so may have unintentionally fabricated that :P

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Not sure if it has been said already but an after market lever and TPA for the 04 lever would be a win! Not to mention some sort of decent adapter so maguras can be used on v brake mounts. There must be something better than what is currently on offer.

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http://www.tartybikes.co.uk/4bolt_boosters/jitsie_integrated_booster_and_clamps/c3p12521.html

For the v brake to Maggie adapter could you not do something like this but have the bottom holes bolted to the v mounts and use a nut on the back of the top holes. Some adapting would be needed and not at this price.

Are they having a laugh? £70 for that f**king thing?

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All well and good stating the 05 "cut the corner" mod prevents them cracking but I think crash resistance is also important in a trials orientated brake.

I've broken a good few lever bodies regardless of the mod due to a bail

Try not to tighten your lever body too tightly to your bar. This way, if your lever hits the ground it'll spin on the bar intead of taking the full brunt of the bash.

Have a look at Shimano disc brakes and the way the "servo wave" design works. The power ramps up the further you pull the lever in.

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