dandadude Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Right ok then lets all just say im wrong lol, im only saying what i feel rides nicer for bmxy and park style riding on a 26 as this sounded to me like what the thread starter was trying to compromise with. Im not trying to convince anyone of anything, if you think manually and bunnyhopping a bike with a 75 degree headangle is easier than one with 69-70 then thats up to you but to me the further forward you are the harder that is. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Because with a slacker head angle and by this i mean around 70 degrees rather than 72 your weight is then more over the centre of the bike which is better for bunnyhops, manuals and general spinning etc, no good having your nose almost touching the front tyre if you want to be doing bmx/streety moves but hey thats just my opinion. Dan I think you've got a bit confused there, a slacker head angle will make your weight less central and more over the back wheel. Most BMXs have around a 74 or 75 degree head angle, and trials bikes are usually 71-72. Which is better for street? What Matt said - BMXs are infinitely better for street than trials bikes are (hence everyone copying BMX moves when it comes to trying to ride street), and they're almost all 74.5° or 75° head angles now. I went from a 74 to a 74.5 to finally a 75 HA on my BMX frames and they progressively got more nimble and better for front wheel tricks. As Matt said, you're talking about altering the reach which you don't have to do with a steeper head angle. You could also quite easily cancel out the difference in reach by rolling your bars to a different angle, but your wheelbase being reduced is not changeable unless you buy new forks. Like with my BMXs, when I went from 74.5 to 75, I rolled my bars back a touch so my body position is essentially the same, but I'm benefitting from the wheelbase being reduced, and from the angle my forks are now at in terms of quickening up the steering. It's not even like it's an opinion based thing - it's a fact that when you steepen the head angle of any frame it'll make the steering faster (and therefore make it twitchier to steer), it's just a case of how the rest of the frame is set up geometry (and component wise) that'll decide how it rides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason222 Posted January 1, 2010 Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) No he's not. He was talking about changing the head angle not the reach. If your trying to explain the ride characteristics of different frame geometries, then you must assess each frame measurement seperately and keep others constant. If you keep the reach the same then the wheelbase will be longer with a slack headangle and hence worse for street. If you keep the wheelbase the same and change the head angle then yes you are right, but wheelbase is not a geometry of the frame, and isn't really relevant when trying to explain frame geos. In most other bike disciplines wheelbase is rarely thought about as it has nothing to do with the fit of the bike. There is no point in having a frame which handles better if it is too short to be comfortable. For some reason trials riders place more importance on wheelbase than reach, even to the point that set wheelbases define what type of riding the bike is for which is complete tosh Well, I should have made myself clearer. If you keep the wheelbase, bb height, and cs length the same, but change the head angle from 73 degrees to 71 degrees, the reach will become much shorter. Rowan mentioned keeping the head angles the same. Well, we're not talking about really slack head angles like choppers. Rowan's 24 had a 71 degree head angle if I'm correct. To compare, the Inspired has a 25.5" reach at 1040 wb, while the ashton effect has a 25" reach at 1040 wb. I'd certainly choose the effect over an inspired any day, I find a 25.5" reach too long for street 24s. Edited January 1, 2010 by Jason222 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eep803 Posted January 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2010 Hi guys, cheers for the top quality chat on bikes geo. This is exactly what I was after. I'm tending towards staying with the 26" mainly because it seems like a frame swap could be my cheapest option. I've a mate with an Inspired so I'll nag him to bring it along and have a play and see how it feels. In terms of the sort of stuff I want to ride, I'd say the Danny Mac style was what first took my eye but I also love Rowan Johns videos. Yeah he rides really well and smooth and fluid, but its also the nice mix of stuff he does, a bit more varied than straight TGS. His 24" Canned Country vid is superb. For me I know that level of smoothness and all that only comes with being really good, but the types of tricks he pulls are what I like, lots of spins, manuals and 180/360s off stuff. I suppose thats the sort of stuff I'd like to ride and am aware that my Loooooonnnnngggg Adamant is just not that bike so am looking for cheapish 26" frames that are available on the 2nd hand market for me to swap out my A1. Thats why knowing what sort of geo is best or better still the names of frames which suit this are what I'm keen on. Thanks again, Skinny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolver Posted January 2, 2010 Report Share Posted January 2, 2010 What geo is your adamant? Is it a stock or modstock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eep803 Posted January 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2010 Sooo, given my TGSy A1 has a geo of 1095, +30, 375mm chainstay and 71 degree head, what would be a more streety geo in comparison to this? Stock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuel Posted January 2, 2010 Report Share Posted January 2, 2010 Hi guys, cheers for the top quality chat on bikes geo. This is exactly what I was after. I'm tending towards staying with the 26" mainly because it seems like a frame swap could be my cheapest option. I've a mate with an Inspired so I'll nag him to bring it along and have a play and see how it feels. In terms of the sort of stuff I want to ride, I'd say the Danny Mac style was what first took my eye but I also love Rowan Johns videos. Yeah he rides really well and smooth and fluid, but its also the nice mix of stuff he does, a bit more varied than straight TGS. His 24" Canned Country vid is superb. For me I know that level of smoothness and all that only comes with being really good, but the types of tricks he pulls are what I like, lots of spins, manuals and 180/360s off stuff. I suppose thats the sort of stuff I'd like to ride and am aware that my Loooooonnnnngggg Adamant is just not that bike so am looking for cheapish 26" frames that are available on the 2nd hand market for me to swap out my A1. Thats why knowing what sort of geo is best or better still the names of frames which suit this are what I'm keen on. Thanks again, Skinny Actually I wouldnt say that was true. People styles come from how they grew up riding, the type of stuff they learnt on and the exposure to other peoples/types of riding. My riding style comes from the fact that I learnt to ride before I really knew what trials was and had no other riders around me doing it so I ended up being able to bunnyhop up a 1m wall on my XC bike with tripple rings without knowing how to backhop/pedalkick off !! My first real trialsy setup was a DMR sidekick V1 so everything was a bunnyhop and pedal off - I was pants (and still am) from static. I then moved to Bristol and met Matt Berridge, Potts, Hawkins and then Porter, Goddard etc - All street and at a time when trials was really developing(and all bikes had seats !!)... Anyways - enough of that little ramble ... In an ideal world you would find a second hand echo pure 04 in short - 1060 +0-5bb 385 and around 72HA. The best frame Deng ever made. U6, strong, light, seat at about the right height... shortish bike so could still spin/bunnyhop but could still handle tgs stuff admirably due to a decent reach (low bb, long HT and not super slack HA) and a nice riding position. But they are pretty hard to find these days - christ they are 6 years old !! Like burrows said - his short adamant is pretty dialled (and danny mac rode a pretty similar echo control as a stock) and there are loads of those about - 1060 +10 ish jobs (no seats though ...) probably the cheapest option. I guess another option is an ashton (old one ) which is 1055 but a really steep HA so pretty long reach - but you should try one out first as they seem to be a bit like marmite ... (I love mine ...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted January 2, 2010 Report Share Posted January 2, 2010 In an ideal world you would find a second hand echo pure 04 in short - 1060 +0-5bb 385 and around 72HA. The best frame Deng ever made. U6, strong, light, seat at about the right height... shortish bike so could still spin/bunnyhop but could still handle tgs stuff admirably due to a decent reach (low bb, long HT and not super slack HA) and a nice riding position. But they are pretty hard to find these days - christ they are 6 years old !! If this appeals to you get in touch I may be able to hook you up. Give me a shout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eep803 Posted January 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Hi cheers Manuel, I see where you're coming from now with your style. I wouldn't have said "that guys used to ride trials on an xc", but now you mention it I can see where you're coming from. Please keep the videos coming! I'm an XC rider who likes the downhill with jumps and drops rather than uphill. I find that on a trials bike (my A1) I just have no confidance to let it "flow". I'd like to say that I feel stretched out over the bike leaving too much bodyweight on the bars but maybe thats just come from me knowing the bike is long, whatever though, it just doesnt feel good letting it roll too fast, the steering doesnt quite feel right for it somehow. All moves I do are completely static, TGS stuff, though if I'm honest I'm still barely much above beginner level. I'm 32 now and in my little head world static moves are pretty low risk (unless they're off a telephone box etc) whereas more flowey streety moves fill me with fear of grazed elbows, knees and hips. Thats what I'm trying to change by finding a bike which will give me that extra bit of confidance for those rolling moves. Ultimately I'd like to develop a breadth of skills from xc rider through to a flowey trialser. Many thanks for the frame suggestions and offers. A mate of mine has real nicely offered to let me swap the components of my A1 onto a 2005 Koxx Marc Caisso Replica frame (http://biketrials.com/review/2005_Koxx_Marc_Caisso_Replica_L521.html) of his to try out, but only buy if I like it. The only geo I can find is 1065 with 390 chainstays. I think the bb is pretty low and the frame is nice and light and I hear its pretty whippey/spinny. If not then I'll def look into the other frame suggestions. Skinny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Burrows Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Those frames ride really well, and I'm sure it'll feel a great deal better than the adamant! They can't take much abuse but if you're still learning and you treat it well it should be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliv Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 http://www.vimeo.com/1765742 love that frame, I believe the bb is +10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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