1a2bcio8 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/news/meningitis_victim_hits_out_at_nhs_privitisation_after_privately_run_practice_in_hackney_refuses_him_treatment_1_1464678 I don't have time to get into a debate but felt I should share something which I think gravely matters. We possess one of the greatest health services in the world and it's being sold off to benefit a minorities interest to the detriment of the rest of us. I rarely hear anyone discussing such a tragedy which, as I understand, hasn't been properly conveyed in much the mainstream media. This will affect all off you in some way, if not regarding your own health, through friends or family. Allowing big business to operate a health service invariably means profit over actual care. Just how insidious these plans are can be observed in the case of Virgin having bought a health care service for children in Surrey with measures for accountability removed. For instance, whistle-blowers are not offered protection for revealing shortcomings within the service and Virgin's decision making is allowed to happen behind closed doors, outside of the public purview. This is a disgrace and we're letting it happen through our ignorance, apathy and complacency. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 If it's becoming anything like it is out here... it's a bad thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Anscombe Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 welcome to the nwo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolver Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Foil hat. This is what the conservatives did last time, privatising stuff. It's not a good thing, something that's based on caring for everyone, even the less well off, couldn't operate as a money-making scheme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurMonkey Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I always wonder how the Tories get back into power. Do people never learn? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 This is a disgrace and we're letting it happen through our ignorance, apathy and complacency. I suppose part of it is that there aren't many options for people to do anything about it? Unless there's significant uproar about it I doubt a few small voices are going to drown out the sound of money coming in from those private companies... But yeah, I'd fully agree it's totally dick. Doesn't the 'New' World Order need a new name seeing as it's not been new for quite a long time (in that it's allegedly centuries old?)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't really know enough about this, so I won't really give opinion rather than asking questions for those who know more... As far as I know, the NHS is obviously a great thing to have. Another thing I 'know' is that private care is better - isn't that the reason so many people with a bit of cash go for it? Personally, I've very recently signed up for Bupa care just because I'm getting so paranoid about screwing myself over in the various less than clever things I do and not being able to work as efficiently as soon as I could by having to rely on the NHS. So I guess my point is that, yea, you're likely to get the scaremongerers doing their scaremongering but surely competition among private companies can also create a far better service than one which is run by people who have to spend their budgets to make sure they get the same money to spend the next year, rather than cutting costs where possible and running as efficiently as possible? Personally, I'm (in a very uneducated way, and thus completely open to change of opinion) pretty open to f**king off everything that's run out of the public pot and getting some competition going with enough of an overview to make sure that it's all still above board and safe. Y'know, like the whole of the private sector... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1a2bcio8 Posted July 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think that awareness goes a long way. The government takes notice if popular opinion, following from proper understanding, leans in a certain direction. It just has to be substantial enough. Furthermore, the ability to organise and take action inescapably follows from being informed and being interested in what's going on. There's little point in talking about what can be done until we've established what's happening. Apathy and complacency are impediments to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Another thing I 'know' is that private care is better - isn't that the reason so many people with a bit of cash go for it? Private care gives you shorter waiting times and does open up a few more avenues for treatment for you, which is why I'd imagine most people with money go down that route? The waiting lists and stuff like that with the NHS aren't ideal, but the key point is that it's not costing people huge amounts of money and it offers care to everyone, whether they're financially set or not. So I guess my point is that, yea, you're likely to get the scaremongerers doing their scaremongering but surely competition among private companies can also create a far better service than one which is run by people who have to spend their budgets to make sure they get the same money to spend the next year, rather than cutting costs where possible and running as efficiently as possible? As in that story above though, it doesn't take much to imagine that they're going to change the way things are run to make them more profitable rather than focussing on patient care? Personally, I'm (in a very uneducated way, and thus completely open to change of opinion) pretty open to f**king off everything that's run out of the public pot and getting some competition going with enough of an overview to make sure that it's all still above board and safe. Y'know, like the whole of the private sector... I guess medical related things relate more around ethics though (well, to an extent obviously), which isn't something that most companies out there to make profit are interested in? To take it to a more extreme example as well, under the NHS even patients who are terminally ill are offered the best possible care until the end of their life. That sort of end-of-life treatment is presumably not going to be cheap, so it effectively prices people out of being able to live. If that health company aren't making money from treating someone and know they're going to die, there's no real urge for them to carry on treating them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1a2bcio8 Posted July 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't really know enough about this, so I won't really give opinion rather than asking questions for those who know more... As far as I know, the NHS is obviously a great thing to have. Another thing I 'know' is that private care is better - isn't that the reason so many people with a bit of cash go for it? Personally, I've very recently signed up for Bupa care just because I'm getting so paranoid about screwing myself over in the various less than clever things I do and not being able to work as efficiently as soon as I could by having to rely on the NHS. So I guess my point is that, yea, you're likely to get the scaremongerers doing their scaremongering but surely competition among private companies can also create a far better service than one which is run by people who have to spend their budgets to make sure they get the same money to spend the next year, rather than cutting costs where possible and running as efficiently as possible? Personally, I'm (in a very uneducated way, and thus completely open to change of opinion) pretty open to f**king off everything that's run out of the public pot and getting some competition going with enough of an overview to make sure that it's all still above board and safe. Y'know, like the whole of the private sector... If you're able to afford the form of private care you're referring to then, yes, you will receive better care. However, we don't live in a world where people have the means to afford the specific type of care you're referring to. If you bring private care into the mass market, so to speak, most people will inevitably suffer. It's a basic principle and, in fact, a law in the sense of obligations to share holders, that profit must take precedence over the actual care. Studies have shown the NHS to be one of the best nation health services in the world. It's not perfect in every sense but it's a balance between providing the best possible care for as many people and keeping it a free service so that we don't experience serious neglect of the most vulnerable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Cheers Mark, all makes sense so I'll digest some more and actually get some chance to read the article before I make a proper decision on how I feel about it. But this... ...and know they're going to die, there's no real urge for them to carry on treating them... ...opens up a whole 'nother potential debate I'm not sure I'd come out of looking all that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 it offers care to everyone, whether they're alcoholic, massively obese, drug addict smokers or not. I'm not too clued up on this but how are they planning on making it work? At present all working folks pay National Insurance and income tax which goes towards funding the NHS so that everyone can get care. Yes it's fairly massively inefficient and can be a ballache but if it were to be privatised, would it no longer be publically funded (i.e. as with the States we'd need insurance)? If we continue to pay NI and income tax, how will it be decided how that is spent on the numerous private companies? Not sure how it could be made to work... Edit: But yeah, I don't know how any profit making organisations can be expected to make the correct decisions in terms of patient care when any expensive treatments or whatever will simply be eating into their profits. It's bad enough as it is with the NHS being something of a postcode lottery (as I understand it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 OK. Read that article, and in typical me fashion I couldn't find it in me to read it without thinking of the other side. It annoys me too sometimes. The way I see it is that it's entirely possible that Mr Butler could have seen a doctor under the NHS system with his 'flu like symptoms' and been treated for exactly that until his condition deteriorated later that day anyway. Maybe I'm biased by my own dealings with the NHS over the past few years but in my experience unless you're actually dying or leaking various fluids over their floor at the time you see an NHS doctor you're going to be sent away with something just above a placebo anyway. That's not to say I haven't had good experiences - when I was indeed leaking blood all over the hospital after my hit and run I was given fantastic care and attention. But it does make me take Colin and the Hackney Gazettes view that he'd have been magically diagnosed if he hadn't been registered at a privatised practise (which is surely partly choice anyway at this time?) with a pinch of salt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1a2bcio8 Posted July 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) http://eoin-clarke.b...l<br /><br />http://m.guardian.co...ty&type=article http://www.telegraph...0<br /><br />http://abetternhs.wordpress.com/faq/ http://abetternhs.wordpress.com/faq/ The final link, a FAQ, is probably the most important read but the articles give a general feel to what's happening and how interests are being served that aren't about democracy. The problem is more widespread than the NHS with the welfare state being eroded in various ways such as the reduction or removal of benefits (job, housing, etc.) for the disabled, single parents and other vulnerable groups. Our greatest social systems which reflect our better qualities (compassion) are being ruined by greedy f**k-wits that possess the wisdom of a turd. Edited July 31, 2012 by Ben Rowlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1a2bcio8 Posted July 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/what-will-the-nhsbill-do-i-dont-think-youre-w http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/mar/01/nhs-reform-bill-incoherent-doctors The last two of these links are well worth reading/watching although they are all important. Particularly the youtube video if you can only handle a few minutes of learning about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 ...opens up a whole 'nother potential debate I'm not sure I'd come out of looking all that good. I've been treated for injuries in various A&Es that I've sustained riding trials (and BMX). That's as much self-inflicted as someone who's fat, a smoker, etc., surely? I know you can argue there are more benefits to you riding trials than eating pasties all day and ending up needing treatment for being a big fat b*****d, but ultimately it's money coming out of the NHS pot that needn't have come out of it if the patient had looked after themselves better. I can definitely see where you're coming from and to an extent I'm just playing devils advocate here, but I'd like to think that if I go to a hospital having just broken my leg f**king up a trick that they'd treat me - even though it was my fault I was in that situation - as much as I'd hope that if I was there in the later stages of having cancer and needed an expensive course of treatment to try and improve my quality of life. If it comes down to a company effectively having to decide whether helping me is worth it to their shareholders, then that's not really a situation I'd want to be in as they're always going to be looking out for the shareholders interests. Similarly, it's worth noting that a lot of BMX riders in America can't actually get health insurance because insurers deem them to great a risk to cover. If you like to ride trials, snowboard, smoke and drink (as a list of examples), you could easily find yourself without any form of health insurance - if they go down that route - which would lead to you being f**ked if you happened to hurt yourself in a serious way. The way I see it is that it's entirely possible that Mr Butler could have seen a doctor under the NHS system with his 'flu like symptoms' and been treated for exactly that until his condition deteriorated later that day anyway. True, but at the same time if he'd actually been seen by a doctor there's still a chance they'd have caught the symptoms simply because they had actually taken the time to see him and interact with him. It doesn't mean they'd have 100% been able to spot it, but there'd still have been a chance - a chance that he didn't get because it would've cost that company money. If it was purely NHS based then arguably he would've been seen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I've been treated for injuries in various A&Es that I've sustained riding trials (and BMX). That's as much self-inflicted as someone who's fat, a smoker, etc., surely? But you damaging yourself and requiring a one off trip to A&E (and potentially physio as an outpatient thereafter) is a drop in the ocean compared to someone who is knowingly doing something that will result in them needing long term treatment, operations etc. which will end up costing the NHS hundreds of thousands of pounds over the course of their life. Yes both are self inflicted but the scales (both time and financial) are worlds apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eskimo Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 so that we don't experience serious neglect of the most vulnerable. Oh yeah? I'm not too clued up on this but how are they planning on making it work? Probably only partial privatisation, like Royal Mail. The NHS probably only works now because people care. Managers do not. My Mum has worked for them for too long, because she cares, shit gets done. They have to deal with so much shit. Privatisation is irrelvent, shit needs sorting out anyway. When i worked for Royal Mail, it was the same story. Postmen who were on holiday or whatever, would stop and talk about the place. Everyone knew how much of a butt f**k it was, and the only reason it did work is because people cared enough to pull the weight of the shitty ass people who didn't. You're saying about 'letting it happen'. Well frankly, we're all too tired to deal with this shit in work, let alone out of work. Same principle applies to the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuel Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Oh yeah? Probably only partial privatisation, like Royal Mail. The NHS probably only works now because people care. Managers do not. My Mum has worked for them for too long, because she cares, shit gets done. They have to deal with so much shit. Privatisation is irrelvent, shit needs sorting out anyway. When i worked for Royal Mail, it was the same story. Postmen who were on holiday or whatever, would stop and talk about the place. Everyone knew how much of a butt f**k it was, and the only reason it did work is because people cared enough to pull the weight of the shitty ass people who didn't. You're saying about 'letting it happen'. Well frankly, we're all too tired to deal with this shit in work, let alone out of work. Same principle applies to the argument. Agreed with a fair bit o this - especially rm being a massive f**k up. Bottom line for me - currently if you get Ill you go to hospital they treat you. If you are very lll they decide whether or not to treat you based on cost. Same thing will continue to happen but the very sickest will get more shit, and a few people will get very rich? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 But you damaging yourself and requiring a one off trip to A&E (and potentially physio as an outpatient thereafter) is a drop in the ocean compared to someone who is knowingly doing something that will result in them needing long term treatment, operations etc. which will end up costing the NHS hundreds of thousands of pounds over the course of their life. Yes both are self inflicted but the scales (both time and financial) are worlds apart. Yeah, I definitely agree with that, but I was thinking of it in terms of whether a private health company would look at it as being worth paying for me to get fixed up then nursed to health because I did it myself, and would arguably heal anyway. Hopefully that makes some sort of sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Another thing I 'know' is that private care is better - isn't that the reason so many people with a bit of cash go for it? Personally, I've very recently signed up for Bupa care just because I'm getting so paranoid about screwing myself over in the various less than clever things I do and not being able to work as efficiently as soon as I could by having to rely on the NHS. This is the key argument I use when talking about healthcare in the states. No one out here seems to realize that you can still buy private healthcare insurance if you have a public system in place. The system we have in the USA right now is you must have insurance for private healthcare. If you don't you have to pay cash. If you get in an accident or need emergency healthcare and you have no insurance, you get treated, but then you have to pay private healthcare prices, which in my wife's case when she got hit by a car was way into the six figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muel Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Can you get medical insurance in the UK for private care or some shit? I have several things that I think may need treating in 20-30 years time or more. (All joint related, I have arthritis and it's slowly getting worse. So far having minor pain in my left hip, both shoulders, all my fingers, ankles, toes and knees). Don't much like the idea of going to the NHS with cries of "My joints are slightly hurty". They'll laugh me out the door, if I was paying then I'd get seen to though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 And this is where it gets fun. Here, you could be paying hundreds of dollars a month on good health insurance because of you hip, shoulder etc pain. But then find out when you actually get them treated, or try to have them treated, they're classed as a pre-existing condition and aren't covered, even though you've been paying into the plan for several years and thousands of dollars. When you start dealing with privatized medicine, you dealing with a company that is trying to make as much money as possible and couldn't give two shits about your actual healthcare. When you're dealing with the NHS they may laugh you out of the door with mild pain here and there, but when shit gets real at least they're actually going to do something about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 That last bit is absolutely f**king retarded JT... Just because a private company exists in the private sector far from means that it is only there to make profit. I think you're all confusing retail with the rest of the economic market. Many businesses exist to do right, which almost inadvertently makes them deceits profits as well. I certainly wouldn't mind paying into a system which absolutely worked and made some profit for those who ran it - how else do you get the right people interested in running it? Therein lies the problem, without incentivising the people who can really make a difference (whether with cash or opportunity or whatever) you won't get them - and that's where the NHS is. I haven't read your links yet Ben but I will - I wasnt going to reply till I had but some peoples blanket view of ALL businesses being about making money riled me a bit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1a2bcio8 Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) That last bit is absolutely f**king retarded JT... Just because a private company exists in the private sector far from means that it is only there to make profit. I think you're all confusing retail with the rest of the economic market. Many businesses exist to do right, which almost inadvertently makes them deceits profits as well. I certainly wouldn't mind paying into a system which absolutely worked and made some profit for those who ran it - how else do you get the right people interested in running it? Therein lies the problem, without incentivising the people who can really make a difference (whether with cash or opportunity or whatever) you won't get them - and that's where the NHS is. I haven't read your links yet Ben but I will - I wasnt going to reply till I had but some peoples blanket view of ALL businesses being about making money riled me a bit! I think you can talk about 'general' or prevailing truths when referring, in particular, to big business. That general truth being profit over much else. Such a truth explains much of the economic, environmental and other problems within the world at the moment. We're talking about the mode of Capitalism that currently exists. Allowing big business with its 'general' behaviour to take charge of our health care system is therefore dangerous. Dr Phil Hammond, in the above youtube video, states that it was tried before by Labour and it made things worse and, no doubt, because of the general truth of profit as the central force. There are always exceptions to the rule but the fact remains, to my mind, that they are in a minority. Edited August 1, 2012 by Ben Rowlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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