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Mr_Orange

Building wheel. Why won't the spoke go fully into the hub hole?

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I'm trying to lace a Clean HS Front Hub 100mm. This one: http://cleantrials.com/en/hubs/37-hs-front-hub-100mm.html#.W8-4ZSMrJz9

When putting the spokes through from the outside to inside, the spokes elbow and the hub flange shape don't seem to be pairing up well. This picture shows the furthest this spoke is going in. Notice it's almost at 45 degrees. This is where it's stuck.

5bd0b71f577b1_tioutsidein.thumb.jpg.1b1da77fffbaf9b551ca3234ea89acf3.jpg

It's not so much of an issue from the other direction (inside to outside). See how the spoke is much closer to being parallel with the flange. This is how it usually is suppose to be on all the other wheels i've built.

5bd0b724c2a3a_tiinsideout.thumb.jpg.7fe617d1db9f90e2a243014582f879cf.jpg

I thought maybe it was my specific spoke at first (usa titanium) but then i tested it with a Sapim Laser spoke and it was the same as you can see here.

5bd0b72109e07_sapiminsideout.thumb.jpg.9f2b71dc454ecd69d4d8dc4dea3df691.jpg

Even getting it to that 45 degree spot took a little bit of wiggling. I did not try using excessive force to try to yank it into place yet. I'm worried this might mess up the spoke or the hub. I think if i yanked it hard with some pliers it might actually fully seat. Maybe i should just do this but with an older/used full set of spokes, tighten it up, skip the truing process, and just use this as a means of pre-stressing the hub without damaging the new spokes.

You can see that this circular "ditch" on the inside of the flange is for sure contributing to this. Seems like you'd need a spoke with a bigger elbow to clear this. Is that my problem here?

Or is there some kind of spoke building technique that only involves feeding the spokes from the inside to outside (the less problematic direction) that i don't know about?

I did also leave these spokes in my car (in a plastic box though) for about a month. I wonder if spokes shrink with heat.

5bd0b726820dd_cleanhubinnerflange.thumb.jpg.c698b5b891294be0c22901265e6b39e3.jpg

 

 

sapim outside in.jpg

Edited by Mr_Orange

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what pattern are you trying to build? 

If it's radial (no spoke crossings) then you can just have them all with the shoulders on the outside if they fit better that way.

If you need to have a crossed spoke pattern you can give the spoke heads a tap with a mallet to try and seat them. If that doesn't work you can always just bend the spokes once they're fitted to get a straighter line from the hub to the wheel and build as normal...once you stress the wheel it should dent the alloy enough to then allow the spoke to penetrate more and have the head sit flush.

Don't worry about damaging the hub too much, you'll be surprised how much they dent from the contact of the spokes anyway once bully tensioned.

Also, the heat won't have any effect otherwise wheels would be going out of tru every time the weather changes 
 

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I've always used 3-cross. I thought radial wasn't even an option if you want a strong wheel.

you, i've seen the spoke indentations around a hub hole from a used hub after removing the spokes so i figured the hub itself can take that abuse. I guess i was more worried about scraping away a decent chunk from the armpit/elbow of the spoke bend when forcing the spoke through.

I think i'm just going to go for it.

 

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3 cross has better rotational strength but radial is stronger side-to-side. Radial is also more stress on hubs as it's pulling against a smaller area, generally it's strong enough for trials stuff.

Good luck :)

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i'd have to get new size spokes cut for radial. Maybe in the future. That's interesting to hear it does have its benefits thought. I always just thought it visually looked weak. 

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On lightweight trials hubs having 2- or 3-cross can sometimes be a good idea for your bearings too.  I've seen in the past that radially laced wheels can pull the hub shell outwards, meaning bearings become quite a loose fit.  You can get around it by re-fitting the bearings with Stud & Bearing Fit, but going for a crossed pattern would be best long term.  You're also less likely to have the spokes rip through the flange as well - again, something I've seen on some of the lighter hubs out there.

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What's a Stud and Bearing Fit? I googled it didn't find anything specific. 

I know you can replace hub bearings. Is that some sort of higher quality one?

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It's a bit like threadlock for bearings, helps pack out slightly loose fitment (Y)

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Bearing Fit is a threadlock, thread sealer and gap filler that has an anaerobic reaction and lightly glues the bearing/bolt/stud into place - google loc tite 638 for an example.

To your hub question, provided I understand correctly, I'd just pull the spoke through (have done so many times on my hubs and wheels I've built for other people), trials gear can sometimes have er, "less than satisfactory" machining tolerances. The Clean stuff I've dealt with has always been on the better end on the scale, however.

My because hub had the same problem on the Lo flange (Hi-Lo flange disc hub); Was a right bitch to rag the spokes through but that same hub has been in my inspired since 2012 with the only problems thus far being a snapped axle due to me being a tool and the OE china bearings being slightly turd around the 2yr mark. 

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Locktite 638 sounds like it should work, we usually use Locktite 270.

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I realized what was really wrong. 

I've been following this one old instructional video on wheel building which tells you to get half the spokes in first and then grab the hub and rotate it clockwise so that all the spokes get into that final rotated position. This was how i built all my wheels.

When i tried this step with this hub, it wouldn't rotate at all. It was just stuck.

The thing with this Clean hub is you have to set the first half of the spokes into their final rotated position right from the beginning. It's actually ideal because there's a sweet spot there where you're not putting any pressure on the spoke elbow, and it kinda just sits in that already rotated position on it's own. 

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Spot on, you have to build to the angle straight away, not the usual system of setting the angle with a twist of the hub. The designer has done a juggling act to give a thick flange whilst taking on normal spokes. As with most engineering, if it needs forcing it might not be right. 

 

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