Aliens, Pyramids, Carving and Ancient Technology

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

I'm still confused as to why the grooves being spiral versus horizontal matters... I would expect them to be spiral of sorts since the cut would be getting deeper as the cut progressed. And why the hell is that video over an hour long?! Could've been 10-15 minutes and still covered anything. Watched the first 17 minutes of fairly meaningless waffle then skipped to 49 minutes but don't really get why that's a thing.

 

Edit: Ah ok it indicates a very high feed rate of the tool. Fair enough.

[Al_Fel]

16 minutes ago, monkeyseemonkeydo said:

I'm still confused as to why the grooves being spiral versus horizontal matters... I would expect them to be spiral of sorts since the cut would be getting deeper as the cut progressed. And why the hell is that video over an hour long?! Could've been 10-15 minutes and still covered anything. Watched the first 17 minutes of fairly meaningless waffle then skipped to 49 minutes but don't really get why that's a thing.

 

Edit: Ah ok it indicates a very high feed rate of the tool. Fair enough.

I was just about to comment saying "You expect a continuous spiral from a backwards and forwards motion?" But obviously you've got it now.

Earlier in the video he addresses the experimental core cutting video which has been shared here before. It's from about 34mins in. You'll see that they are pretty deceptive when they do it and don't give you the full story because they can't explain it.

[Al_Fel]

I'd suggest watching the whole video if you're into it but if not have a look at 20 mins in for a few minutes. You'll see corner stones in Peru and the same method used in Egypt. Again you see the knobs sticking out of the stones in Peru and also the same in Egypt. Now for me that's the same technique used in both cases and on virtually opposite sides of the planet. If that's not any kind of evidence for some kind of global lost technology then I really don't know what else I could say to prove to you otherwise.

I feel like I'm being made out to be the bad guy here who is trying to spread lies. I'm really not, I'm trying to spread awareness of what is being kept from us.

[manuel]

3 hours ago, monkeyseemonkeydo said:

I'm still confused as to why the grooves being spiral versus horizontal matters... I would expect them to be spiral of sorts since the cut would be getting deeper as the cut progressed. And why the hell is that video over an hour long?! Could've been 10-15 minutes and still covered anything. Watched the first 17 minutes of fairly meaningless waffle then skipped to 49 minutes but don't really get why that's a thing.

 

Edit: Ah ok it indicates a very high feed rate of the tool. Fair enough.

Where is the bit where they actually explain the spiral significance?

 

Is the cotton wind image suggesting that the drill is taking out more than a mm per turn?

[Al_Fel]

49 minutes ago, manuel said:

Where is the bit where they actually explain the spiral significance?

 

Is the cotton wind image suggesting that the drill is taking out more than a mm per turn?

40 mins in. I'm not an expert but surely if it was done with a back and forth motion you wouldn't get a continuous spiral pattern so yes the cotton does suggest that was the feed rate. It's suggesting it was done in one continuous motion hence the uninterrupted spiral groove. Nothing we have today can do that. Diamond doesn't even come close to being able to cut anything like that. There is no current logical explanation for that spiral on that core. 

You want to say it was done with a copper pipe and sand like in the demonstration video? Fair enough. If you actually look at the core cut outs you can see whatever made the cuts was tapered to a few mm. The copper tube they used on the video was much thicker than a few mm.  They knocked the core out with steel chisel's when they had copper/bronze ones to hand. It took them a "few days" to drill about 3inches deep being generous.

Whatever I show will never be enough to change your mind. You're set in your way of thinking and there's nothing I can do about that. There's a lack of evidence on both sides of this argument. The only thing we know for sure is there were cultures that lives at these sites and have been documented about. There's no hard evidence they built some of these amazing structures.

[manuel]

Ok so, just as a follow up. The spiral shows a feed rate not actually possible? And how many other cores show a spiral? The video bangs on about how many cores there are drilled around the place - how many of those show the standard circular marks and how many a spiral? I can think of a few ways of creating a spiral mark, depending on how deep those scores are - eg changing bits and one is significantly thicker, or even reversing out a stuck bit out of all the additional sand. 

 

The bit in the video about not being able to remove the cores without steel chisels is rubbish. And I say again, they were working stone for thousands of years....

 

Your idea that I’m stuck in my way of thinking is also rubbish. If you show me the EVIDENCE I will accept it, but currently I haven’t been shown it. You are telling me that I’m believing a lie. This is quite insulting to many people including me, and mind bogglingly silly. 

[manuel]

4 hours ago, Al_Fel said:

 

You want to say it was done with a copper pipe and sand like in the demonstration video? Fair enough. If you actually look at the core cut outs you can see whatever made the cuts was tapered to a few mm. The copper tube they used on the video was much thicker than a few mm.  They knocked the core out with steel chisel's when they had copper/bronze ones to hand. It took them a "few days" to drill about 3inches deep being generous.

 

No I’m not saying it was done like that. Similar, maybe. The video is supposed to be a feasibility test, and yes, you can drill a hole in granite with basic copper tools. Yes it took them ages - who cares. The Egyptians were using basic tools to carve stone for thousands of years. It’s not surprising that they were good at it and undoubtedly faster than an old white dude and a couple of blokes on their first tries...

[Al_Fel]

10 minutes ago, manuel said:

Ok so, just as a follow up. The spiral shows a feed rate not actually possible? And how many other cores show a spiral? The video bangs on about how many cores there are drilled around the place - how many of those show the standard circular marks and how many a spiral? I can think of a few ways of creating a spiral mark, depending on how deep those scores are - eg changing bits and one is significantly thicker, or even reversing out a stuck bit out of all the additional sand. 

 

The bit in the video about not being able to remove the cores without steel chisels is rubbish. And I say again, they were working stone for thousands of years....

 

Your idea that I’m stuck in my way of thinking is also rubbish. If you show me the EVIDENCE I will accept it, but currently I haven’t been shown it. You are telling me that I’m believing a lie. This is quite insulting to many people including me, and mind bogglingly silly. 

Why is that feed rate not possible? I don't know I haven't looked at them all. The idea that it was done with a continuous motion was ignored and deemed to be impossible as you also seem to believe. You think reversing a stuck bit out could create a spiral pattern on the core? Wouldn't that suggest some kind of tool we don't know about? Which I'd class as lost ancient technology.

I'm not saying you couldn't remove the core without steel but they were trying to replicate the way they think the Egyptians did it and they never had steel until much later on.

Other than taking you back in time and showing you who built these structures I don't know what more evidence you need.

These structures are global and share the exact same methods of construction. That's not good enough for you,

1000's of giant 10's - 1000's+ ton rocks quarried and moved hundreds of miles. That's not good enough for you.

Striations in hard rocks which suggest impossible cutting rates. That's not good enough for you.

18ft+ circular saw marks in rocks. That's not good enough for you.

Proof that the core's lines have been depicted to show them being horizontal by rotating the picture in published literature to disprove something that can't really be explained. That's no good enough for you.

2 minutes ago, manuel said:

No I’m not saying it was done like that. Similar, maybe. The video is supposed to be a feasibility test, and yes, you can drill a hole in granite with basic copper tools. Yes it took them ages - who cares. The Egyptians were using basic tools to carve stone for thousands of years. It’s not surprising that they were good at it and undoubtedly faster than an old white dude and a couple of blokes on their first tries...

Just because you can make a dent in a piece of granite with copper and sand it doesn't mean that's how they did it. As someone posted in the other thread a piece of rope will cut though steel given enough time. It's not a feasible method of working with steel though.

[manuel]

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/sci.archaeology/TjRguELZWJA/k0ouAj1LZmsJ

here is a link to a discussion about how you could cut a spiral groove....

 

the rest of of what you just posted is just not EVIDENCE it’s opinion and coincidence.

structures look similar in different places - big whoop

they moved big rocks - big deal

THE spiral - wowza something unexplained - shit the bed aliens

the cover up of taking the picture at an angle - conspiracy theory nonsense

 

We don’t know how they did all these things, but our current timeline of when they did them, who they were and the types of technologies they had available is pretty well established. If something is actually discovered that changes it then great - go celebrate.

 

[Al_Fel]

On 10/08/2019 at 8:15 PM, manuel said:

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/sci.archaeology/TjRguELZWJA/k0ouAj1LZmsJ

here is a link to a discussion about how you could cut a spiral groove....

 

the rest of of what you just posted is just not EVIDENCE it’s opinion and coincidence.

structures look similar in different places - big whoop

they moved big rocks - big deal

THE spiral - wowza something unexplained - shit the bed aliens

the cover up of taking the picture at an angle - conspiracy theory nonsense

 

We don’t know how they did all these things, but our current timeline of when they did them, who they were and the types of technologies they had available is pretty well established. If something is actually discovered that changes it then great - go celebrate.

 

That discussion is exactly that. A discussion of opinion no "EVIDENCE" No examples of it happening again, no experiment to replicate it and nothing other than opinion to support it.

You bang on about wanting evidence but you don't seem to need it to support your own/current theories of how all this was done.

Opinion and coincidence?

Structures not only looking similar but sharing the exact shame traits.

Menkaure Pyramid Egypt

Cusco Peru

Those knobs on the blocks are very unusual. You'd have to carve off a lot of material to make them. What purpose do they serve? The Menkarure pyramid is believed to have been built 2510 BC the walls in Cusco built around 1100 AD a few thousand years and pretty much opposite sides of the planet but almost the exact same feature. If that's just a coincidence to anyone then I'm amazed.

Big deal about moving big rocks? Wow you really do underestimate this feat. It's not just about moving the rocks. The rocks have to be quarried first. I really don't think you are using your brain if you can look at them rocks and say they were made with basic tools over long periods of time. IF that's the case then the Inca moved and quarried thousands of "Big rocks" in just a couple of hundred years compared to the Egyptians 1000's of years during which they somehow lost this ability.

I'm not saying it was Aliens but I'd have Aliens doing it above what is proposed currently by historians.

You want to be Mr Sceptic but you think we know how it was all done and it just takes time and effort because the only evidence we have is the Egyptians living in this area at that period so it must have been them that built it (Same applies to the Inca). That's a closed minded view on it in my opinion.

[manuel]

I’m not underestimating the feat, But don’t see an issue with them doing it with the manpower/dedication they had and the technology available.

 

there is plenty of evidence to support the Egyptians building the pyramids, there is none to suggest an alternative high technology civilisation did it. 

 

Closed minded?!! If you genuinely believe that, you are living in a dreamland.

 

 

[Al_Fel]

I think you are underestimating the feat.

The tools that have been found aren't capable of cutting, shaping and moving some of the stone work found in Egypt. I don't see any huge saw blades, I don't see any core drills and there's no lifting equipment capable of moving some of the bigger stuff.

It's a leap of faith to just assume they did it without the evidence of the tools especially when the tools found don't match up to what is being suggested.

I agree there's not much evidence that it was an ancient civilisation but no one has been looking for it! Everyone is trying to make fit what is already believed.

It's like finding the dead body of someone that's been shot and there's a knife covered in blood at the scene. You're just assuming they were killed with the knife.

[forteh]

9 minutes ago, Al_Fel said:

The tools that have been found aren't capable of cutting, shaping and moving some of the stone work found in Egypt. I don't see any huge saw blades, I don't see any core drills and there's no lifting equipment capable of moving some of the bigger stuff.

That's probably because the hemp ropes and wooden frames used to cut the stones would have rotted away; stop thinking everything was cut using copper chisels, that's a closed minded view on it in my opinion

[Al_Fel]

25 minutes ago, forteh said:

That's probably because the hemp ropes and wooden frames used to cut the stones would have rotted away; stop thinking everything was cut using copper chisels, that's a closed minded view on it in my opinion

Where's the EVIDENCE it was cut with hemp rope? There's plenty of wood found from back then so that doesn't really work does it?

Edit: Not to mention I'm not the one saying everything was cut using copper chisels. I'm saying it could be a method we know nothing about because of the large cuts, accurate work and astonishing feeds rates.

[forteh]

Rope cutting is a perfectly logical explanation as to how the stones were cut, add a slurry of sand and water, put 10 men on each end and have them pull either way.  Hey presto a long, straight, accurate cut.

Circular cuts would be done in the same way, wrap rope around a vertical arbor till you have the right diameter, add slurry, add slaves, rinse, repeat.

To say that we know nothing of rope cutting stone is bollocks. Large and accurate is no issue when you have a rope 100 foot long and how can you quantify what feed rates they used (astonishing or otherwise)?

Perhaps I shouldn't have said that they would have rotted away, more accurately they would have worn away and a new section length of rope then used.

Moving the stones around was by boat and and sledge/water/sand, plenty of evidence already for this.  Lifting the stones up the pyramid was via temporary ramps, examples of the type of block and wall construction are at Giza.

Edited August 14, 2019 by forteh

[Al_Fel]

7 minutes ago, forteh said:

Rope cutting is a perfectly logical explanation as to how the stones were cut, add a slurry of sand and water, put 10 men on each end and have them pull either way.  Hey presto a long, straight, accurate cut.

Circular cuts would be done in the same way, wrap rope around a vertical arbour till you have the right diameter, add slurry, add slaves, rinse, repeat.

To say that we know nothing of rope cutting stone is bollocks. Large and accurate is no issue when you have a rope 100 foot long and how can you quantify what feed rates they used (astonishing or otherwise)?

Perhaps I shouldn't have said that they would have rotted away, more accurately they would have worn away and a new section length of rope then used.

Moving the stones around was by boat and and sledge/water/sand, plenty of evidence already for this.  Lifting the stones up the pyramid was via temporary ramps, examples of the type of block and wall construction are at Giza.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Must have been rope then. Close the thread we have an answer!!

[Al_Fel]

Interesting how rope cuts with an outwards curve...

[forteh]

Copper/wooden disk, edged with rope run in slurry.

Come on, work harder than that.  Look inside your box, all the answers are there....

[Al_Fel]

1 minute ago, forteh said:

Copper/wooden disk, edged with rope run in slurry.

Come on, work harder than that.  Look inside your box, all the answers are there....

Is that really what you think? WOW

I know some people aren't particularly technically minded but that's impressive.

[forteh]

I've been working on machine tools from 6 years old, started technical drawing at 10, rebuilding engines from 11, 20 years working part time on victorian fairground ride, degree in mechanical engineering and almost 19 years as a mechanical design engineer cleaning your shit (sewage treatment for what it's worth).

Not technically minded at all.

[Al_Fel]

1 minute ago, forteh said:

I've been working on machine tools from 6 years old, started technical drawing at 10, rebuilding engines from 11, 20 years working part time on victorian fairground ride, degree in mechanical engineering and almost 19 years as a mechanical design engineer cleaning your shit (sewage treatment for what it's worth).

Not technically minded at all.

Is that supposed to impress me?

That's your CV and you think the Egyptians built giant wooded/copper discs to cut granite with rope? I'll say it again WOW!

[forteh]

It's not meant to impress you, just some evidence that I am infact technically minded despite what you might think (having never met me).  I will happily admit that I'm not particularly academic and that there are people far more intelligent than myself.

I've seen rope cut iron, I would love to hear your technically informed opinion on how to do it rather than regurgitating youtube videos

[Al_Fel]

1 minute ago, forteh said:

It's not meant to impress you, just some evidence that I am infact technically minded despite what you might think (having never met me).  I will happily admit that I'm not particularly academic and that there are people far more intelligent than myself.

I've seen rope cut iron, I would love to hear your technically informed opinion on how to do it rather than regurgitating youtube videos

Comprehension doesn't seem to be a strong point of yours either. You think I have answers for all this? I'm saying we don't know and none of the current theories or even tools we have today can achieve what was achieved 1000's of years ago.

Can anyone look at this hole and explain it? Look how thin the walls of the cutter must have been where his finger is. Look at the internal cutout to the right hand side of the picture. To me that looks like its set back from the bore hole which looks like it goes right though. IF that's been done while it was still a full hole then that's a bit more than rope wood copper or whatever.

[forteh]

That's more like it

In the current era (discounting multiple axis cnc machinery): -
You want a circular hole to be square bottomed (to properly support an inserted dowel), this isn't possible with a conventional fluted drill, the only way to achieve this is with a flat bottomed cutter such as a slot drill.
The circular rebate would be milled using a dividing head and a T slot cutter. The axial grooves could be cut with a little ingenious use of a shaper or a broach.

In a previous era: -
Rough the hole out using a rotating rope arbour (as I mentioned above) to the nominal dimensions then use a copper tube saw to cut the last few mm (or slightly undercut in this example) to achieve your square internal corner.  The rebate would be made in much the same way as with current machine tools, except instead of rotating the workpiece on a dividing head have the vertical arbor on an adjustable eccentric - cut out to the right diameter and then rotate the eccentric.  Obviously the depths of the cuts would have to suit the cutting tools available but that's only a case of time and repeating the same operation.  Rough out with rope and slurry then take a finishing cut with copper edged tooling.  Either way it's just basic principles of pocket machining.  The axial grooves are easily put in with either a reciprocating wood/slurry tool or chiselled out (which I suspect is far more likely).

[Al_Fel]

9 minutes ago, forteh said:

That's more like it

In the current era (discounting multiple axis cnc machinery): -
You want a circular hole to be square bottomed (to properly support an inserted dowel), this isn't possible with a conventional fluted drill, the only way to achieve this is with a flat bottomed cutter such as a slot drill.
The circular rebate would be milled using a dividing head and a T slot cutter. The axial grooves could be cut with a little ingenious use of a shaper or a broach.

In a previous era: -
Rough the hole out using a rotating rope arbour (as I mentioned above) to the nominal dimensions then use a copper tube saw to cut the last few mm (or slightly undercut in this example) to achieve your square internal corner.  The rebate would be made in much the same way as with current machine tools, except instead of rotating the workpiece on a dividing head have the vertical arbor on an adjustable eccentric - cut out to the right diameter and then rotate the eccentric.  Obviously the depths of the cuts would have to suit the cutting tools available but that's only a case of time and repeating the same operation.  Rough out with rope and slurry then take a finishing cut with copper edged tooling.  Either way it's just basic principles of pocket machining.  The axial grooves are easily put in with either a reciprocating wood/slurry tool or chiselled out (which I suspect is far more likely).

I might as well be talking to a Megalithic wall haha.

Current materials and methods couldn't cut with the same feed rate that is shown. I misspoke when I said we couldn't do it at all today. I meant our modern technology isn't as effective as the lost ancient technology I'm suggesting.

So what you suggest the way they did it was to rough it out with rope on a tube then square it up with a copper tube? The cores found are in a single piece with a constant spiral grove which can be traced suggesting it was cut in a continuous motion. There's no evidence of the Egyptians using anything what you are suggesting. They documented how they worked and there's no mention of what is suggested.

Logically you've got to look at everything as a whole. Would they spend 1000's of hours drilling one hole? That's some work ethic.