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10 Year Gap


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Hi all.

been away for about 10 years, got married, had a kid and the usual 30s stuff. hope all of you are doing okay. 
 
I bought an echo to get back into it, but struggling to find Echo Urban forks. In fact looking on the normal go-to trials store here in the UK it looks like there isn’t half as much choice as there used to be. 
 

can anyone fill me in on what the current landscape is?  what’s been going on in the last decade? 
 

Edit: so Tarty has new owners. Echo/Zoo is dead and Onza moved on from trials. 😢😢😢

Edited by Luke Dunstan
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90% of riders are on an Inspired, Crewkerz or Clean bike. Building up your own bike seems to have disappeared, seems people buy full bikes these days. Also if you aren't doing everything to front wheel, are you even riding trials?

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It appears to be ruff all over holmes. I'm in the US and had to split an order between Tarty and trials-bikes.com out of spain. Over here we only have Web Cyclery and the trials superstore, the Canadian site I used to parous closed down. And our trials forum looks more like 4chan than a community. At least where you're at people have bikes stashed in their garage. I found a few ancient trials bikes on eBay, I'm talking early to late 80's. I'm hoping I win the bid on a planet x I found. But if I do I'll immediately have to hit up Tarty or WebCyclery for parts. If you want a 24" inspired people who bought those and never used to ride cross-country mountain bikes fitted for trials at the skate park are buying those thinking that's what makes Danny Macaskill a good rider and then selling them at a discount. And Santacruz an American company makes a bike just for Danny, but doesn't sell the damn things. Or at least that's what I've run into. I would love to have bought the more reasonably priced Alias 24.1 but apparently that didn't last long enough to find one. I think I found a French webstore that had a few of those left, but I already put a bid in on the other so I have to wait. Either way the downside of living in a country with states the size of three European countries combined is having to wait a lot. Adulting is fun ain't it. Welcome back. Enjoy the privileges of proximity my guy. You are blessed.

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13 minutes ago, craigjames said:

90% of riders are on an Inspired, Crewkerz or Clean bike. Building up your own bike seems to have disappeared, seems people buy full bikes these days. Also if you aren't doing everything to front wheel, are you even riding trials?

That's the most disappointingly accurate summary of trials I've seen in a while :lol:

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18 hours ago, Ross McArthur said:

The other 10% are retro hoarders.

The thought of how many wonderful trials frames and forks have made it into a scrap pile gives me night terrors. I wish I'd horded all of mine as well. That's what I get for not being afraid of the kung flu. They just look so lonely when they're not being ridden. Do you think some of these trials companies could get a subsidy since they technically died of Covid? 😆

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On 7/4/2024 at 1:41 AM, craigjames said:

90% of riders are on an Inspired, Crewkerz or Clean bike.

I ride 2 Czars, an Ozonys and, well ok, 1 crewkerz.

And i always build 'em from the frame up.

Alias was a really good alternative to the other brands. They are missed.

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13 hours ago, Swoofty said:

I ride 2 Czars, an Ozonys and, well ok, 1 crewkerz.

And i always build 'em from the frame up.

Alias was a really good alternative to the other brands. They are missed.

So you're of the 10% exception to what i said. 

I mean i'm looking for a new 20" frame, unless I want a Clean or a Jitsie there isn't much other choice right now. Hopefully that changes and some new options come out soon.

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5 hours ago, craigjames said:

I mean i'm looking for a new 20" frame, unless I want a Clean or a Jitsie there isn't much other choice right now. Hopefully that changes and some new options come out soon.

The new Ozonys Curve 20" is shipping again now and TMS has a 20" as well. I just ordered myself a new Ozonys 20" frame last month. Hopefully I won't be wrong for not ordering a Jealousy. 😂

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I think you already know that Ozonys belongs to Crewkerz.

There are no so many actors currently and I think it won't get any better sadly due to the lack of interest in trials currently.😔

So there is nothing wrong to support even the biggest brands, they also need support.

 

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21 hours ago, craigjames said:

So you're of the 10% exception to what i said. 

I mean i'm looking for a new 20" frame, unless I want a Clean or a Jitsie there isn't much other choice right now. Hopefully that changes and some new options come out soon.

We should thank Brexit for this…

I mean, you’re right in saying that there isn’t as decent variety as there was say 10 years ago but off the top of my head the main brands currently are: Crewkerz, Clean, Ozonys, Comas, Breeth, Maestro, Jitsie, TMS + Campmajo in Spain and I’m sure that there will be other local niche brands in China that we don’t even know about e.g. Lykke (briefly)… It’s just that us in the UK are only getting crewkerz, jitsie and clean in stock.

The last few bikes/frames I’ve bought have mostly been shipped from Europe: Clean X2 frame from Hungary, Comas full bike from Sweden I think, Maestro frame from Germany, Clean X1 full bike from France…. If you know you want it, you need to be prepared to spend the money, otherwise there are plenty of jitsies on the second hand market here in the UK.

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13 minutes ago, DYAKOV said:

We should thank Brexit for this…

I mean, you’re right in saying that there isn’t as decent variety as there was say 10 years ago but off the top of my head the main brands currently are: Crewkerz, Clean, Ozonys, Comas, Breeth, Maestro, Jitsie, TMS + Campmajo in Spain and I’m sure that there will be other local niche brands in China that we don’t even know about e.g. Lykke (briefly)… It’s just that us in the UK are only getting crewkerz, jitsie and clean in stock.

The last few bikes/frames I’ve bought have mostly been shipped from Europe: Clean X2 frame from Hungary, Comas full bike from Sweden I think, Maestro frame from Germany, Clean X1 full bike from France…. If you know you want it, you need to be prepared to spend the money, otherwise there are plenty of jitsies on the second hand market here in the UK.

Honestly here in France we don't have MUCH more bikes to choose from... Trials is less attractive than it has ever been nowadays thanks to hook up moves and front wheel moves that just make it very boring and repetitive to watch...

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13 hours ago, La Bourde said:

I think you already know that Ozonys belongs to Crewkerz.

There are no so many actors currently and I think it won't get any better sadly due to the lack of interest in trials currently.😔

So there is nothing wrong to support even the biggest brands, they also need support.

 

I don’t think that there has ever been a great amount of interest in trials anyway… but I agree with you that big brands need support, it’s what makes them “big”. And being big means that they can persevere through economic crises whereas smaller brands just seize existing. So, if there weren’t big brands like crewkerz, jitsie, clean in the past few years, I think that trials would slowly die off by the time the last of the old stock second hand bikes in use snapped and there were no replacements on the market. In those terms the big brands are keeping it alive but I feel like the price point doesn’t let the sport grow. Imagine a world where you could either buy a Ferrari or not have a car at all, that’s the situation we’re in. Big brands need to optimise and find ways to make their products more accessible because it’s only people who are already into trials that are happy to spend the money. Quite frankly, if I had no clue about trials and my kid came home one day and said “Dad, can I have £2.5k for a bike?” I’d tell him to get lost…

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25 minutes ago, Canardweb said:

Honestly here in France we don't have MUCH more bikes to choose from... Trials is less attractive than it has ever been nowadays thanks to hook up moves and front wheel moves that just make it very boring and repetitive to watch...

I don’t think it’s much to do with the style of riding… Back to my point from the last comment I made - it’s just not an accessible sport, purely from a financial point of view but also in terms of “marketing” and promoting the sport. Trials organisers have a responsibility to share in that matter. Trials has evolved into an almost fully comp/natural riding sport up in the mountains and away from people. If you bring trials back to the streets like the tgs era was and what the shindig guys were doing last year with their regular street rides/vlogs, then you make bikes cheaper to buy, I’m sure that would attract lots of new people into the sport. Watch Charlie Rolls’ London video, plenty of hooks and moves to front in an urban setting - looks pretty cool to me! If you think about it, street trials is definitely more popular than pure trials. Why is that? I don’t think that the top pure trials riders are any less skilled or less exciting to watch than Danny Macaskill, each in their own discipline. It’s just that one rides in the city and the others jump over twigs up in the mountains.

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8 hours ago, DYAKOV said:

I don’t think it’s much to do with the style of riding… Back to my point from the last comment I made - it’s just not an accessible sport, purely from a financial point of view but also in terms of “marketing” and promoting the sport. Trials organisers have a responsibility to share in that matter. Trials has evolved into an almost fully comp/natural riding sport up in the mountains and away from people. If you bring trials back to the streets like the tgs era was and what the shindig guys were doing last year with their regular street rides/vlogs, then you make bikes cheaper to buy, I’m sure that would attract lots of new people into the sport. Watch Charlie Rolls’ London video, plenty of hooks and moves to front in an urban setting - looks pretty cool to me! If you think about it, street trials is definitely more popular than pure trials. Why is that? I don’t think that the top pure trials riders are any less skilled or less exciting to watch than Danny Macaskill, each in their own discipline. It’s just that one rides in the city and the others jump over twigs up in the mountains.

You make a very good point there. Also there has never been so many dedicated trials "training" grounds so that makes trials even more exclusive! You wouldn't believe if I told you I live in the french Alps, there are tons of natural stuff to be ridden but no one in 3 trials club one hour each from the other knows of any places! Because the training grounds they have cover all the needs for competitions. Is it me or are there less shows than there used to be? I was riding at one today and it was years since I had done my last one... That is also a great advertisement for our sport!

But I will keep saying it: modern trials and modern techniques make trials as boring as it ever was. Once you have seen one hook up move and one front wheel move you have basically seen the rest of the competition. The UCI has tried so many things to make the sport media friendly than comp riders don't ride lines in comps anymore. They basically go up one obstacle, go down, and go up again. I know trials has always been weird to watch for people who know nothing about it but I don't think comps have ever been less attractive than it is now.

Edited by Canardweb
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8 hours ago, DYAKOV said:

I don’t think that there has ever been a great amount of interest in trials anyway… but I agree with you that big brands need support, it’s what makes them “big”. And being big means that they can persevere through economic crises whereas smaller brands just seize existing. So, if there weren’t big brands like crewkerz, jitsie, clean in the past few years, I think that trials would slowly die off by the time the last of the old stock second hand bikes in use snapped and there were no replacements on the market. In those terms the big brands are keeping it alive but I feel like the price point doesn’t let the sport grow. Imagine a world where you could either buy a Ferrari or not have a car at all, that’s the situation we’re in. Big brands need to optimise and find ways to make their products more accessible because it’s only people who are already into trials that are happy to spend the money. Quite frankly, if I had no clue about trials and my kid came home one day and said “Dad, can I have £2.5k for a bike?” I’d tell him to get lost…

That is also very true, even the entry level bikes from Crewkerz or Clean are a lot of money. And that is a shame as it's clearly something putting off any starter or beginner's parents. Also it's funny you call them big brands or that you compare them to Ferrari as for example Christian doesn't live from selling Crewkerz bikes and he has to continue DJing to be able to live! I find this sad...

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On 7/4/2024 at 9:44 AM, The Ugly American said:

It appears to be ruff all over holmes. I'm in the US and had to split an order between Tarty and trials-bikes.com out of spain. Over here we only have Web Cyclery and the trials superstore, the Canadian site I used to parous closed down. And our trials forum looks more like 4chan than a community. At least where you're at people have bikes stashed in their garage. I found a few ancient trials bikes on eBay, I'm talking early to late 80's. I'm hoping I win the bid on a planet x I found. But if I do I'll immediately have to hit up Tarty or WebCyclery for parts. If you want a 24" inspired people who bought those and never used to ride cross-country mountain bikes fitted for trials at the skate park are buying those thinking that's what makes Danny Macaskill a good rider and then selling them at a discount. And Santacruz an American company makes a bike just for Danny, but doesn't sell the damn things. Or at least that's what I've run into. I would love to have bought the more reasonably priced Alias 24.1 but apparently that didn't last long enough to find one. I think I found a French webstore that had a few of those left, but I already put a bid in on the other so I have to wait. Either way the downside of living in a country with states the size of three European countries combined is having to wait a lot. Adulting is fun ain't it. Welcome back. Enjoy the privileges of proximity my guy. You are blessed.

Hey man, sorry for the late reply to this. 
 

so much has changed in 10 years. Deng going under is like a gut punch. As even though the bikes were expensive the market was pretty full of second hand parts making bike builds easy. Not so much now.

ive set alerts up on eBay for anything echo/zoo related, so now it’s just a waiting game, kind of like fishing 🤔

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The trials bikes and parts are expensive, that is right. But as Canardweb wrote, even at those prices it is difficult to make a living from it.

On the other side, even an entry model is now working really well, I was surprised how good the Crewkerz freed rode. It is maybe 1kg heavier than a Jealously, but it is half the price.

Modern parts from serious brands (trialtech, inspired, waw, tms, bonz, etc) are now quite good and reliable too,not like 15 years ago.

In addition, used bikes are not so expensive and even a ten years old bike is pretty close to a modern bike (compare an Atomz Quark II to a Jitsie for example).

Here in Germany, the used market is full of street/trial bikes.

And as mentioned many times by Ali C, Super rider or others, there is no need of a dedicated trial bikes for a beginner.

Clubs have often old trial bikes, like 10-20 years old Monty. And that is good enough.

 

Finally, compared to mountain bikes, 3k for a bike is not much. That is the price of a frameset sometimes. For the price of an entry level trials bike, you won't find a correct mountain bike.

I think the inflation was a big issue the last years and that is why the modern bikes feel so expensive: our wages did not increase that much sadly. 

 

 

 

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Agreed with above.

The entry echos of ten years ago came with tires, brakes, and brake pads that were pretty much useless, I'd buy a brand new bike and drop $400-$500 immediately. And they wouldn't last very long; the wheels were trash, and other parts scary to ride hard.  The new entry bikes are actually solid and good out of the box.   The biggest problem now is supply, it's really hard to get just about anything these days.

Just did an inflation calculator, $1000 USD in 2014 is $1343 now, so 34.3% inflation. That combined with the newer entry bikes being a lot more solid, things seem spot on price wise 

As nostalgic as I am of the older bikes, I don't miss how flimsy and poorly made they seemed compares to the newer stuff. I used to buy a bike every year, now my bikes last until I get bored.

However, the extensive supply is sorely missed. I built a bike from scratch two years ago and had to make six orders from 3 countries to get all the parts.

 

Edited by cwtrials
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18 hours ago, cwtrials said:

I built a bike from scratch two years ago and had to make six orders from 3 countries to get all the parts.

 

... And two years ago there were still a few more vendors. I just tried ordering parts from Bikecici last night only to find out that for some reason... they'll sell parts to anyone but Americans. Maybe I could mobilize some "fast and furious" type weapons pipeline for smuggling trials parts into the country. For now, I have to hope I can work something out through Tarty Bikes to get hold of a stem that's not completely ridiculous or made for a comfort bike. 😖🤬😢

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Supposition... "Trials isn't that popular."
Truth... The modern bicycle industry would not be what it is if it wasn't for trials.

The actual big-name companies that fall under the umbrella of an international conglomerate use trials riders like vaudevillian performers or circus geeks. It's the only reason they ever make a trials bike. Brands like Marin and Santa Cruz who are at the verge of being a GT or Giant sized company outside of the multinational oversight pick up trials riders and use them to advertise their other products. There is nothing wrong with that. But where the hell are they when it's time to sponsor a local trials event? Not a trade show-sized event like Sea Otter or Interbike, but any local event. I just picked up a Planet X Zebdi Mk2 and got sent down the rabbit hole inside of the rabbit hole a bit. Planet X sells road and bike packing stuff mostly in 2024, but in 2004 they were helping innovate what we recognize as modern geometry. These days the trials kings are having a midlife crisis hoarding retro builds and the OG's from over here are giving bicycle coaching classes, which is cool, but it's kind of like a world-class golfer having to pick up work at the local country clubs pro shop to make ends meet. Those guys should be running their own bicycle companies or at the very least managing a division for one of the major companies focused on the sport of trials as an equal to the niches that would not exist if trials weren't a requirement in the early days of MTBing. Planet X made a Tibo... now Tibo makes TMS. I have a slightly different perspective on this than the average rider from Europe I'd wager, because even though trials as a concept was introduced to me by my dad who used to race motocross and used a trials bike to become a better rider (raced a Husqvarna in the 70's, played on a Bultaco when he wasn't doing that). He used to race moto locally in Colorado with the guy who invented the Air spring mountain bike shock in 1988, and before that, he was beating Evil Canival in a wheelie competition and being sponsored by Husqvarna. I didn't know that part of the story until very recently, I only have stories my dad and grandpa told me, and pictures he showed me of him beating that guy in a local competition. He never told me why he stopped racing. But as I have lived long enough to finally understand the world a bit better, it turns out it came down to affordability. The price point of competition sucked the joy out of motocross for him and snapping his Bultaco in half made that equally unsustainable for my working-class family. Thank god that didn't affect his friend or Rockshocks may not have existed as a staple of the sport of MTB. For me trials has always been a MTB sport. I didn't find out that the moto trials companies used to make mods and that Hans Rey didn't just manifest out of the aether until way later. I actually got to go to one of his demo's back in 1996, and that demo was held at a local bike shop that didn't even sell GTs. It was all about promoting mountain biking which became an Olympic sport the same year. In my very regular world, my friends already loved the sport, and my dad was the cool dad who would let us trials through the living room over the coffee table into the pallet section we set up in the backyard, and then bragged about the chain ring marks on the front and back of his car where he encouraged me to try and get up and ride over our land yacht. Because it was fun and funny, not because it was a competition. I have never entered a competition, and was pretty sure I would have done ok, but I would rather be shuttling up into the mountains with way too many people in the car stacked with bikes, so we could get to the 5-mile climb that lead us to the 20 miles of downhill which had all the trials sections you could handle with no cell phone cause only rich people had cell phones, or video cameras. We had something way better. There were other competition trials riders in Colorado, but I had no idea there was a local mobile repair guy who could get actual bicycle trials parts until well into the 2000's. The first trials bike I ever owned was a heavy tools which my local shop just happened to have been considering distributing, but chose not to because I was pretty much the only person near me who was that into it. Even in my own state, driving from the top to the bottom is 500 plus miles, and driving it east to west is even farther. I live in Texas not far from the border of Mexico now, so if you were to fly from the UK to Bentonville Arkansas where they recently had a UCI trials event, and I was to leave and drive when you took off, we'd probably arrive arrive the same time. So before cell phones and the internet were in everyone's home, the only way I ever would have been able to find a trials comp or other trials riders who were really into it would have been to accidently run into them somewhere. The local bike shop might be having a Hans Rey trials demo, but there were no flyers advertising the sport locally. And the super cool dude who used to work there and once held the Guinness book record for highest bunny hop in the 80's, had left, because the owner didn't see the upside to catering to the die-hards who were constantly buying parts. They just wanted to sell bikes. Being a trials rider always made you a weirdo at my local shops. Everyone likes what they like but trials riders seem to be the only group who love all the things. Those who don't see the value in that tend to run bike shops. Being a trials rider felt like being a kid who was into magic tricks. People looked down on it like you were hiding something because they didn't understand the process of learning the trick wasn't actually magic. Just persistence and a feeling of accomplishment when you get it right, even if nobody is watching.

I understand this is a long comment, but I'm coming to a point, I promise.

I became a professional musician in the early 2000's (yes I was still a teenager) using the same persistence and mind set I absorbed by getting good at riding a bike. But it requires the exact opposite of the introverted determination of trials. I had to learn to not feel bad about self promotion, had to learn how to make a trip pay for itself even if you didn't have a guaranteed payout for a gig. Ended up getting in magazines and zines for doing something totally not related to cycling. But if you happened to be in a venue way before the show started you would probably catch me using it as an excuse to ride my bike on those super springy loading ramps and jump off the stage (perks of the gig). I learned what it takes to become a performer. Even got to play a gig with Motorhead once (which was exactly as awesome as that sounds). If only those audience members knew that the reason I was so good at it was because I learned it from Hans Rey. Bit of an epiphany there... but I digress. When I was working a regular job while writing a new albums worth of material, I would take advantage of my job as a pizza delivery guy to slip flyers for my next show into apartment complexes common area's and anywhere else there were lots of people. I made just enough money to afford a rental room, and a practice space, and mostly lived out of a trash bag. Everything else went to paying for promotion, buying guitar strings, etc... and I would use my flyering as an excuse to ride all over Denver. All of that was still difficult to manage financially because until you're signed to a record label, it's all on you. So we found ways to get sponsored, and I learned that there are tiers to sponsorship. So I could say I was sponsored by Mesa Boogie at the same time as huge arena acts, but they got their entire backline for free, where as I got an artist discount on essential consumable things. My band was sponsored by Jägermeister before I was old enough to legally consume alcohol, which provided us with free stuff to pass out if people couldn't afford to buy merch from us, cause crowd work is important. In order to do all these things I had to move to an actual city... and then I found out later while playing in another band that wasn't my project, all of the musicians I looked up to, were doing the same thing, except they lived in Los Angles. I made a decision. If a famous guitar player still has to work at the music store, work the sound board at a local venue, and sell weed to the door guy, when they are not playing in front of 500,000 people stadium festivals all over the world, then I should be able to do that just as easily with my own project from where I grew up. I loved getting to meet all of those musicians I looked up to, but surely you don't half to move to a city that costs twice as much to live in so that you can do what you want to do. I was wrong, not because I was wrong, but because it's hard to get others who haven't had that experience to understand what you understand from experience, and as it turns out, proximity is more important than talent. So that didn't pay off, and I decided to join the Army rather than subject myself to such nonsense. The military restructured my hierarchy of needs considerably, and not only did I stop playing music, but frequent tours to the middle east and the constant training related to it make it difficult to practice trials, I could actually get reprimanded for showing up to work injured, and parkour is just not the same. Eventually I had a family of my own. And then I got injured in the line of duty. Not Martin Ashton injured but not far from it. That started a years long process of injections, and different kinds of therapy which didn't really help. Walking on some days was a stretch, riding a bike was out of the question for some time. Turns out your spine controls all the things attached to it, who knew. I'm gonna speed this up a bit because I'm not trying to write a made for TV drama over here. But I had a couple more kids, went to trade school for a bit, got divorced a few times, went homeless a few times, and a few years back I had enough of the BS. The harder I tried to make things work like they are supposed to the more things went to shit. So what is, isn't always what it has to be. I got a job working in a Commercial truck repair shop, did that for a year which taught me some important lessons in my new level of mobility, then used my commercial drivers license to drive trucks all over the country for the next three years, while I saved up enough money to not be a homeless person if anything happened to come up. Turns out sitting for 11 hours a day or more for three years straight is terrible for your core, worse if you have permanent injuries in it. But I learned to ignore it and where the limit is before I have to go to the emergency room to get a needle in the back. Along the way before trucking I worked in a couple bike shops and learned that other people's primary reason for not getting into cycling of any kind, is mobility issues beyond their control. So after giving a legally blind lady a class on how to do some basic trail bike maintenance since she was already doing the hard part and riding with the support of her partner, helping a stroke victim equip a bike so she only needed one side of the handle bars and could start doing recovery, helping a really big guy get the right bike that was reliable and comfortable enough for him to enjoy riding and then getting the supreme privilege of helping him pick his upgrade 150lbs lost later, implementing changes in that shop that doubled the revenue inside of a year, and losing that job because the owner found that less valuable than selling triathlon bikes to doctors once a year, I decided that if I was going to do all that and constantly just get shit on by the people who have the resources but don't actually give a shit about what they were doing, I should probably just focus on doing things I like for myself. Right back where I started. The first rule of capitalism is that competition is a sin, but nobody seems to actually understand what that means until they go out of buisness. Any industry that doesn't double down on the investments that made them an industry in the first place is doomed to fail.

The point...

Trials as a sport is a discipline that has done some serious heavy lifting for all other cycling disciplines whether they like it or not, and the sense of accomplishment a participant gets is the entire point. Nobody who's watching a UCI championship who has never seen trials before thinks to themselves, "gee, I bet I could do that". Let alone "gee I could do that with a permanent injury or disability." I was nearly in tears binge watching all the Martin Ashton bucket bike and hand bike videos, and followed that up with a documentary about US soldiers with amputations or paralysis riding all the way across the country, because I realized that whether they knew it or not, they were all demonstrating skills and using a mind set that to me, is teachable through trials. Not only is it teachable, it's essential. Life is nothing but obstacles. I am just as happy on days that all I can manage is an easy ride on the ebike as I am on days that I feel good enough to actually go session a rock garden. The former usually following the later. Then watching the interview RPM did with Ali I got choked up again, because I have autistic nephews, and knowing how hard that is for them it gives me hope that they'll find something that gives them joy that they'll be as brilliant at as RPM and Ali are at trials. Any and all riders and companies that figure out that people are what keep you in buisness, and the meek shall inherit the earth, will be able to elevate the discipline to it's rightful place within the cycling world. The trials riding community would do well to apply those supremely overdeveloped line choice skills to finding ways to make it an adaptive sport, which should be the most obvious thing in the world, because nobody stays 100% forever. What are we all gonna do when we hit 70 and the arthritis has left us with permanently hooked index fingers. Hopefully not point with our thumbs and add an extra finger to the pointing back.

Matthew 20:16-28. King James Version. 16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."

 

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