What Has Deng Been Up To Now?

[Tomm]

joe elding you can look it how you wish, but your first line of reply is absolute bullshit!!!!! if you was world champion you wouldnt expect any money? thats the most amount of bullshit iv heard in a long time!!!!do you think vincent goes to his dad "dad dont worry i dont want any money i will let it cost me £thousands of£ to travel the world and get me noticed and i will make youer company loads of money" if you think that is real life ascenario wake up and smell the coffee!!!!!

No-one is saying that Hermance rides for nothing though. I'm sure he gets expenses paid and a bit of a wage, too. I don't really know, but that's not what people are saying. In fact it's quite the opposite - Koxx are paying all their sponsored riders lots and WE the consumer are paying for it through the nose. It would be ok if all these riders were constantly developing new frames and ideas, and to a certain extent they are, but Koxx frames are not special enough to warrant being twice as expensive as everything else. But if people want to buy a Koxx, that is also fine by me.

onzaboymark i dont even wanna get involved!i see things from every angle and i have opinions that are not biased.

Step back a bit Wayne. That's complete shite. You are sponsored by Koxx FFS.

deng has produced too many frames, that is my opinion which i feel is right cos the market is full of frames TOO friking many. obviosly not for you cos you dont ride your bike enough to understand that the lads that like new frames every now and again are finding it harder to choose things.

That old chestnut. I don't really see, is that supposed to be some kind of insult? People will ride their bikes as much or as little as they want, it doesn't make you a better person because you ride/"train" 10 hours every day.

I'm giving up there.

[Joe Papasnap Maher]

JEEZ LOUISE..... Why does everyone bitch soooooo much on this forum now....your all like little girls.

Who cares a cheap frame come out....i dont, i wont be buying it.......who cares if riders get payed....i dont(aslong as they still ride )

At the end of the day...what does it matter.

JUST RIDE YOUR BIKES AND SHUTTUP. Ive just come in from having a like a 2 hour session in my garden with 10 pallets, pushing myself , it was great. Then i come on here to read all this shit about a new frame.

What does it matter:S

You all need to get lives and stop thinking that your opinion is right and no one else's is correct.

im sad to say it but i think the forums going to be say IMO after every post, like what happend a while back

[N.Wood]

Holy gay... Go ride a bike people.

[Mark W]

For some shit reason, the quotes aren't working, so bold stuff is Waynio's parts...

EDIT#2: Erm... they work now...

onzaboymark i dont even wanna get involved!i see things from every angle and i have opinions that are not biased.

Since you've been sponsored by Koxx, you seem to be a lot more positive about Koxx products than you were previously. Like Tomm said as well, you're sponsored by them. I'm not saying you're a shit person or anything because of it, it's just that you did seem to be saying that the Koxx frames were the best out there and that people didn't really need to go anywhere else - or that's what it sounded like to me. Maybe I read your post wrong. Who knows.

that is my opinion which i feel is right cos the market is full of frames TOO friking many. obviosly not for you cos you dont ride your bike enough to understand that the lads that like new frames every now and again are finding it harder to choose things.

I love the way you're calling me a "kid" (or "asshole" alternately?) yet you're resorting to "you don't ride your bike enough"? To be honest Wayne, I can't really be bothered to go into how life to me is more than just riding my bike. I have other interests in life, such as playing bass. Many's the time I've been learning theory stuff on the internet and posting here too. Anyway, this isn't the point I was gonna raise. You're saying that with new frames, it's "harder to choose" things. I've been riding for 5 years now, and you've been riding for longer than that. In that time, I've ridden quite a few frames the same as you have. I've also ridden other people's bikes. I know, from my experience, that I want a frame that has 360-365mm chainstays, +55mm to +60mm BB rise, and preferably a wheelbase of around 1040mm (I'd also quote the centre BB to centre top of headtube length too that I prefer, but I can't remember what I've got at the moment). Therefore, when GU released the short GU, I knew it wasn't something I wanted. That isn't a confusing thing to do? There are a hell of a lot more frames around than when you or I started, but that's just 'cos people are starting to know more of what they like and what they don't, so it's just catering for everyone. Before, like when Koxx started with the Levelbosses, they just made two sizes which were basically the same frame but with a slightly longer TT. Now though, people prefer X length top-tubes, X° headangles, X length CS - so companies are making more frames to try and get more people to buy them. I don't have Koxx's frames list to hand, but I seem to remember you putting it up before - either way, back in '02 there was (off the top of my head) the 2 Levelboss 26s, the 2 Levelboss 20s, the Cheat Code, the S6XX and one or two other frames. Now, they've got 5+ signature frames, the different length Levelbosses and so on. Either way, you know that you've just got to look at the geometry and find one you like. It takes a bit more searching, but surely it's better to just have to do a bit more research and find your perfect frame rather than ride something you're not 100% happy about just to make life a bit easier?

im 22 not a friking 10-16 year old that has to be right all the time and thinks i know the whole world!!!! im still learning stuff every day at work, and its one of the things that most people will never have on here. cos there un able to see how people can make a living. it aint worth another post to be honest. so slate away at me. im not arsed.

I'm 19 (well, in a few days) and have 2 jobs, just so you know (ironically, I finished my shift at 10pm, then rode til half eleven, watched a Live8 documentary and then just came on here to PM someone. Ah well.) You on here seem to be trying to assert your opinion like I asserted mine in that one post, yet I'm some f**king terrible person for doing it? You had a go at me before for doing exactly what you're doing now. Seems a bit odd, but I'm guessing you'll reply with examples of me and how you hate me 'n' all that. To be honest, don't bother. I know I'm not your #1 favourite person, and what you say isn't going to change my life at all. I don't mean that in an arrogant way, just that I have my circle of friends, my riding friends, my band-mates, people like that - I'm not some heinous person just 'cos you and I have contrasting views on stuff. This forum doesn't represent people as they are in real life. I've heard countless people tell me you're an amazing person, and like I said to you before, I'm willing to believe that. You may not like to believe that I'm an OK person, but that doesn't matter to me too much, simply 'cos like I say, I've got people here I'm friends with and people here I care about. I don't want you to get worked up about hating me or anything, is what I'm trying to say.

if i was stood in front of you would you argue the same shit? or would you be quite quiet?

That largely depends on you too? Either way, I wouldn't have any problem expressing my point of view to you if that's what you're getting at? I have the "courage to stand by my convictions". It's a fact that Koxx rebrand stuff and sell it on for quite a large markup, and it's also a fact that at one point, the Levelboss short mod frames were around $60 to Koxx (in a batch of 500, I think it was) and were then sold on for £380 or so. I wouldn't have a problem drawing those two examples up to you. In fact, I'd probably be more inclined to do it just 'cos I'd like to hear your view on it, 'cos you're someone who's more involved with Koxx than I am (that sounded dodgy ). Like you said, we're all constantly learning, and I've learnt a hell of a lot from here and from talking to people about stuff. For example, I always listen to what Ad Read's got to say - although there's less to hear from him of late, sadly - 'cos he's someone who know's his shit and generally has something worth saying. So anyway yeah, I would ask you that. Not in some confrontational way, but I would speak about it.

iv old them all not to believe anything that is put up on this forum as most of it is views from people that dont have half a clue or idea. some people do and have respectful posts and you can trust. but some of the posts are garbage.

Funnily enough, I've had to say the same to a lot of people too. It's weird seeing one piece of misinformation posted on here then get recycled in loads of posts in New Members chat from people who've just joined thinking everything is 100% correct on here. There's plenty of stuff on here that's totally and absolutely shit. Pretty much the reason I only really use T-F to stay in touch with friends on here, really. There's so much stuff that's just not been thought about at all that it's unreal. You said "some of the posts are garbage" - that should realistically be "almost all of the posts are garbage."

EDIT! ps mark:

More choice is a good thing. Seems to be bringing prices of frames down which is pretty awesome. Notice how Zoo used to have Pythons retailling at near enough £400, and now they're getting by with them £115 less? Bit of a markup there If they can slash their prices by that much, hopefully other companies will follow suit. *cough*Monty*cough*

[\quote]

why should monty or any other manufacturer for that matter change there prices for some KID or asshole like people on here?????? JUST cos some "1" kid says your too expensive blah blah blah????yes there maybe 100 members on this forum that think so, how many trials riders in the world are there?????? alot more, hence why they wont listen to people who always want things cheaper. some companies compromise. some dont have to cos they have that "brand" out there.

did you know koxx help other companies such as scorpa???? do onza? do echo? do zoo? stop think listen and learn.

Haha, where to begin...

Right then. First off, I wouldn't say I was a "kid". Just to clear that up. Like I said up there, I'm 18. I'm not wearing that as some badge of honour or anything, just pointing that out

Yes, I suppose I'm one "KID or asshole" who's saying that I don't like paying loads of money for stuff. The level of "sponsorship" I got with Supercycles (not really sponsorship, just development work I do) isn't the same level as your's so I guess I've got to pay more for my stuff. Maybe that makes it easier for you. Who knows. Anyway, regardless, one of the main reasons I've always really liked Onza and Supercycles is that they make affordable stuff. When I first started riding, I was too young to get a decent job so I just did a little paper-round to earn money (start violins playing in background). I eventually got enough after about 6 months to afford a T-Bird (was a bit longer than planned 'cos they went up by £20 just before I ordered it. Gutted ). I'm really glad I started riding trials. It's an amazing sport, and I believe it's made me into the person I am today, which is better than - say - if I'd just played football or whatever. Anyway, the point I'm getting at is that if they hadn't made a cheap frame, I wouldn't have got into trials. I know how great trials is, so I'd like more people to do it. If companies only produce expensive products, there's no way in apart from for richkids basically. That's not a good situation to be in, which is why I'm always happy when people release frames for cheaper. I'm not a huge Deng-fan (is anyone? ), but I was actually pleased when the GU was only £285. You're getting a shitload of frame for your money, and from what I've heard they ride really well. He could've charged £400 for that like they did with the Python frames before, but they've decided to make them cheaper. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Shit, going well off the point there. Basically, 'cos of the way my "trials life" has gone, I'd like to see cheaper bikes out there. If you're content for people to keep prices sky-high, then fine. I don't agree with you. That's the way it is, really. I still think that it's a good thing Deng's reduced all his prices. By most accounts (the Python CLS felt like shit to me, but other people seem to dig it), the Zoo Python and Pitbull frames are great frames to ride (even Akkers likes the Pitbull ), so by being cheaper more people can afford to ride a great frame that'll allow them to ride better. I don't see how it's a bad thing at all. Zoo have "the brand" and are hugely respected in trials as making great frames that are used by great riders, yet they still slashed their prices.

About your last point - Koxx are helping Scorpa to make that bike 'cos it's creating a new niche market, so Koxx are going to make money. Other companies helping out other companies to make money doesn't really mean shit though? Onza is owned by Supercycles Group Ltd. who also have a pretty large roster of companies, e.g. Guess, DDG and so on. So I guess you could say Onza was "helping" them. Either way, I don't see how that has any relevance at all, unless you're using it to justify their prices?

Either way, f**k it. I don't really care any more 'cos it's pretty late, and my 13-hour working day's kinda caned me.

Too much of a "kid" to stay up late I guess

[chrishayton]

wow thats 1700 odd words, we have half year courseworks that onyl require that much text, you did it in 10 mins, TF HELPS PEOPLE TO LEARN!

[Mark W]

Haha, 1700? Shit... Could've summed it up with: "I'm 18 and have 2 jobs, and I don't agree with what you said, but never mind let's call it quits"

This post > my other post...

[chrishayton]

Haha, 1700? Shit... Could've summed it up with: "I'm 18 and have 2 jobs, and I don't agree with what you said, but never mind let's call it quits"

This post > my other post...

lol i just realised i need to go to bed, i cant believe i spent the last 5 mins copying and pasting your reply into word lol.

you do have a point though mark about cheap frames being good for trials.

but i can see why certain companys charge more, i dont agree with it but come on look at the market, they sell a s*it load of bikes, all the top riders in the world(that arent bike sponsered) nearly all ride a monty or a koxx, i agree that koxx and monty overcharge but come on if you were in their position and didnt care bout the little men then wouldn't you do the same if you were constanly selling a whole lot of bike.

this is where companys like onza are great, they realise that people need cheaper frames so they produce them, and although its nice to think they do it for us 'kids' (which they might a little) at the end of the day they are a business and by producing cheap frames they sell a lot, which while making kids happy about there new t pros etc they are also raking the money in, dengs done the same but with even less regard to the little man and more to his bank account.

people need to realise whilst trials being a small market its still someones business and they gonna make as much money as they can. whether thats charging way over the top amounts and selling many or charging a small amount and selling sh*t loads its the way they make money.

we have to realise this and just buy whatever we want to buy.

trials is a business for bike manufactures, they are there to make money not make us happy

btw i feel im a bit off topic so my appolgisies if i am. and in no way am i trying to offend people ie mark or wayne(although wayne you were a little mean before)

[andyroo]

This thread is full of so much crap!

Koxx currently make 12 different frames... Deng's companies make 9...

Now, my superior brain capabilites lead my to believe that 12>9, so with this piece of evidence I would go as far as saying that someone who is sponsered by Koxx IS biased because they are making critisms of other companies that in real life it is there company that is guilty of it.

But Koxx sell them for twice as much, if not more!

And don't give me any R&D crap, every company does there fair share of that... for example, the Czar may ook like an XTP but being cnc'd it requires completely different design and production methods, making it very different to the XTP.

I could blab on all day, but I've got work to do.

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

at dawn?

[Siders77]

[Picture] [/Picture]

at dawn?

Nah, it''s funny this way!

[James_Porter]

there is a simple way to settle this... deng and the owner of koxx has a rock,paper, sissors tournament till death...

if it is constantly a draw then they will go to phase 2 of my tournament... a javalin(sp) constest using the frames...

once again if its a draw, its a dirty fight till death...no rules and they have to be naked...it will be in a cage, and waynio will be put in at half time, cause hes mad like a lion...and will just add suspense.

thats what i think should happen.

[mat hudson]

i think that koxx should lower their prices

btw did any of you get warned for any of that?

Edited December 22, 2005 by mat hudson

[Dai the Socket]

hobnobs to me your coming across to being "a little out of touch" with trials. you cant expect riders to ride for FREE!!!!! hence why the price of some koxx parts may incur "a more expensive price" due to them having so many world champions, id like to see you "world champion" and ride for penuts!!!!! get me? or are you still going to be as short sighted as a zebra?

That I've gotta disagree on to be honest

for this post, I'm gna give frames a number just on how good they are overall. If koxx frames are say, 8. And Zoo frames are 7, which they probably are around about. Due to them being pretty similar, strong, made out of U6 etc etc.

The only difference is that the Price, and as Wayne said, the number of world champions riding for them. I think that if Koxx want to promote their products, and have world champions ride for them, it should come out of the competetive profit margins, not have the put on huge extra prices just so they can fund that.

They can't expect a viable reason for their expensive prices being 'cos they sponsor world champs.

I don't care if someone who's a world champ, or someone who's acemazin' rides my frame. Yeah, CLS riding my python probably put it into the forefront of my mind so I thought about it more. But If he won a world championship and was god of all trials ever, I wouldn't be any more interested in it than I was when I bought it.

I agree with Hobnobs even though I can't really remember much of what he said

[fruitbat]

there is a simple way to settle this... deng and the owner of koxx has a rock,paper, sissors tournament till death...

if it is constantly a draw then they will go to phase 2 of my tournament... a javalin(sp) constest using the frames...

once again if its a draw, its a dirty fight till death...no rules and they have to be naked...it will be in a cage, and waynio will be put in at half time, cause hes mad like a lion...and will just add suspense.

thats what i think should happen.

FPMSL James thats one way to get the topic back on track!

As for what waynio said with advice yeah i agree. I have to say some of the best advice i have been given has been from Wayne and the others i worked with at Aire Valley.

There are far too many frames out there these days its unreal but the companies are all about making money. If a company has more choice it broadens there areas within the market. IMO

As for all the posts on here its all peoples own opinions(this does include my post) and opinions can be nasty things, spesh when someone else doesnt agree. Why do people get so touchy about it!

[Onza Kieron]

GOD!! the market really has been taken over now There is also some quite nice looking shizzle there too. Purple cranks are looking

[totaltrials]

It's obvious why onza are the cheapest or have been for a long time, they miss out a distributor, with echo zoo koxx etc all have, an extra level in the triangle, so everybody getting the same % of profit means onza will be cheaper by the % lost through other distributors of other companies, if you get me .

The "frames are too expensive" debate could be understood quite easily, there's so much which people discard into manufacturing costs and retail price, like: Import tax, VAT, handling charges, Shipping, price QTY, premises, phone line, cable, employees, basic TAX, god the list goes on and on and on and on.....................................you end up doubling the price of a frame, it's not just as simple as the frame cost this and that much, why is it so expensive.

I'm sure most people understand anyway.

Phil.

Edited December 24, 2005 by totaltrials

[Mark W]

It's obvious why onza are the cheapest or have been for a long time, they miss out a distributor, with echo zoo koxx etc all have, an extra level in the triangle, so everybody getting the same % of profit means onza will be cheaper by the % lost through other distributors of other companies, if you get me .

The "frames are too expensive" debate could be understood quite easily, there's so much which people discard into manufacturing costs and retail price, like: Import tax, VAT, handling charges, Shipping, price QTY, premises, phone line, cable, employees, basic TAX, god the list goes on and on and on and on.....................................you end up doubling the price of a frame, it's not just as simple as the frame cost this and that much, why is it so expensive.

I'm sure most people understand anyway.

Phil.

Yeah, I know what you're saying about it not being just the $60 for a frame, and having all the other money on top, but it just seems shit to me that the prices are what they are.

Kudos to Deng though for getting the frames out so cheap now. Like I said before, the way the GU frame's so cheap is pretty awesome, in fairness. Pleasantly surprsied