desire68

I never once said my religion was right Mark! I respect the Muslims as belivers,i just dent share their beliefs simple.Christianity is right for me(Mike) i'm committed to it totally,i believe in God the father,God the son and God the Holy spirit,I believe in the bible and I both believe in and speak in tongues when the Holy spirit bids it and i'll share my christian views with anyone who will listen ,no matter whatb their background! You misunderstood the jewelry statement so let me explain.I have a personal relationship with Christ and before i became a christian,i had a LOVE for jewelry,i mean a real love for the stuff,it was unhealthy,i chose to take it off to show God how serious and committed i was to him. Christians do wear jewelry but it's not the love of their lives(like a form of idol worship) but for me it was! Mike.

Mark,i'll try to answer all of your points! Ok,God is simply doing what any parent who loves their child would do! The fact that a child has free will doesn't stop them from being naughty and punished for doing wrong!! Yes we can bring back people who have just died with the use of ,defibrilators but not after three days,or any length of time where the body has started to decompose,and NO we are not being God in this sense as i feel that even the invention of equipment like the defibrilators has been attained by the knowledg,wisdom and understanding that God has bledssed the minds of medical science with.In the book of Daniel it talks about there being an increase of knowledg in the times to come,i believe that those times are here. God is most definitely omniscient ,Yes God created lucifer as the chief angel over music,but like i've said before about man,angels were created with free will.Lucifer wanted more,it was greed that caused him to fall along with all his followers down to hell. There seems to be a lot of confusion in what your trying to say here,and i'm not really understanding what your saying in this next part " I wasn't referring to free will as the choice to follow God or not, I just meant in terms of our daily life. If God is altering things, we are limited as to what our options are by however he alters things, which means that we don't have the free choice we had before he meddled with things, therefore losing us our free will, which also again supports the argument about God being perfec" A little clarity is needed here! Man takes God out of the equation in the same way a disobedient child refuses to do what has been set out by his parents,doesn't stop the parents from being in charge though and definitely doesn't make them any weaker than the child either! The reason that i can say that God helps us when we pray is because i have a personal relationship with God and my belief in him,he helps me when i pray so why wouldn't he help others.Mark this personal relationship that i mentioned can only come when your totally committed to believing in God,you don't believe in God or the bible,you even LOOSELY quote scriptures from the bible without researching the actual scripture,you both speak and take things out of context to suit your arguments.Instead of arguing half thought out points why don't you ask direct questions to which you might get direct answers,i feel you have a lot on your mind which comes out in the confusion of some of your questions,i could be wrong though! Ofcourse God is altering things all the time,he wouldn't be able to answer the requests of those in need with out changing things,but this is us requesting things to be changed,God doesn't just alter things for the sake of it.Remember sin is our choice,God has put provision in place for us to be forgiven for our sins by Christ dying on the cross for us,he want's us to turn from sin but again this is our choice. This goes back to the Parent child scenario again,do all parents have there children so that they can do bad things,i think not,but if the child does wrong then that child must be punished,especially after being told over and over again not to do a certian thing I still don't know which part of the bible your talking about when you mention God having let things get to a state of affairs he had to kill people to make it right! Tell me which bible story your commenting on and i'll answer your question here! A small example of how God is with his children can be found in the book of Judges in the bible,the Iseralites were being ruled by a king appointed by God,then they would do wrong in the eyes of God so he would cause a ruler to put them in to slavery and ill treat them.then the Iseralites would remember the God that they serve and cry out to him for deliverance,and this would move Gods hart so he would allow them to be delivered from the slavery and ill treatment,and they would be thankful but only for a while.Soon after being delivered they forgot about god and started to worship other evil gods and sin in the eyes of God and the whole process would start again This went on for a LONG time If you want to know how long then read Judges The point here is that the Isralites never lost their right of choice to go back and sin again,when they sinned they were punished,when they cried out to God they were delivered,but don't confuse the fact that they didn't just stop believing in God they sinned against God and thats why they were punished! God didn't commit genocide,i don't know what killing your talking about exactly but i do know this,a lot of the killing by God was done in the old testament,this was a time with out any rules,Right up to the time of Leviticus people were still killing one another for the simplest of things.Satan(as he was now called after his fall) was ruling the harts of men so a great deal of killing was taking place. You cant just say God was killing people LOOSELY like that as different situations in the bible each have their different explanations,tell me what your referring to and i'll do my best to explain if your interested! mike.

Mark, You also talk about free will as if we(men) created it for ourselvs,when God created man,God gave man dominion over the earth and all that was in the earth,man was also created with free will,the right to chose weather we serve God or not!!God is also the creator which means he dosen't answer to us! Mike.

Ok Mark there were a few incdents where God did punish people but to comment i would have to know which incident you are referring to so my hands are tied on this one needless to say that when he did punish anyone he had a good reason but to give you a specific answer i would need to know exactly what you are referring to! Right,i don't know about it being one of the main foundations,but i think you are refereeing to the fact that when for example a christian goes through a trial or something bad we feel that we are being tested or strengthened.I personally believe this and i'm not alone,i prefer to see it as being guided,if i go through something bad,i always try to see the positive side of it,and God does change circumstances,espically when it proves himself to people.Lazarus was dead and stinking,but God raised him from the dead,and i'm not expecting you to believe this but as i believe in the bible i will use examples from it and this is one of them! You ask why God lets good people suffer,well i don't think that he does,just as there is a God there is also a Devil who rules over the earth until Jesus returns and he is responsible for much of the evil that has taken place on earth! I don't know what part God had in the Holocaust if any,i would have to find out more about it from a biblical point of view so i can't answer on that at the moment and the friend who fell off a bike or board wasn't written by me so can't comment on that either! Mark,to try and sort out this free will thing,if i've got it right,you think that when God heals or helps people this alters the world which imposes our free will?? but if we don't ask for healing or help we don't get it so how is this altering the world.God doesn't say "Man must follow me!!" but when man does follow God there are guidelines and these guidelines are there so that man doesn't miss out on what God has for him whilst living a christian life! When Man chooses to do things his way,when difficulties come about,God is powerless to help because man has taken God(his help) out of the equation! I know God helps us when we pray,and God IS altering situations and circumstances all the time,because there is always someone praying!! Mike.

Mark, God does change circumstances but this is after a sincere request,if we request it then that is our choice! I have never herd of anyone being healed with out a request! In fact, i believe that there are a lot of things God would love to do for us but he won't because we just don't ask him ! Exactly what are you referring to with regards to your "massacred for not believing" statement?? I'm not going to spend the rest of my time apologizing to you for "not replying to main points of any of your posts" i've done my best,if i missed something in the reply to you from Saturday then lets go through it! No definitely no nerves hit here,you see Mark,God and christianity are a part of me,nobody forced God on to me,i accepted him with my own free will,i Love talking about God,why else would i be on a bike forum talking about little else?? Your arguments/questions challenge me and make me stronger in the process so if this topic has to go to 100 pages i'll still be here with my point of view,so like i said before,if i've missed something that you need me to clarify then ask again,it won't hurt you to do that!! Mike

Rob,here's a good site for all the information your after www.edition38.com this site caters for all things VW modified.Try to have some sort of budget in mind,i was modding Golfs MK1's-4's and the rule of thumb is think of how much you want to spend on mods and double it,because by the time you've finished you would have spent a mint. Your price list could look like this A sound system containing 1 12" sub, 2 AMP's, 2 6X9's 2 alpine 10" door speakers(this really depends on what brands you go for,if your getting good stuff anything from a couple of hundred to a grand at least!) Alloys (prefeble 17") There are some good wheel and tyre packages out,best deals are on line,look to spend at least five hundred pounds here unless you go for second hand which will be a little less! Lowering springs (you will need to make sure that your shocks are good before you slap on a set of lowering springs,expect to pay around 30-40 pounds a corner for springs or if you want the best,then go for a set of Koni adjustable suspension for about 700-1000 pounds,depending on where you get it from.Again,the best deals are on line!) Window tints ( about 300-350 pounds for a MK2,remember,no limo tint on the passenger front and drivers windows as the Five O don't like it and they can make you either scrape it off there and then or make you leave the car where it is!!) MAYBE some bucket seats... (this is up to you,but the aftermarket trend on the VW scene is to go for Recaros from a G60 ,these can be trimmed in leather and some are electric,very nice and a full interior in leather shouldn't cost you any more than 5-6 hundred pounds! Induction kit Check what engine your Mk2 has first as some work better with the origoial airbox! having said that these kits can be anything up to 100pounds Bore exhaust Look for a good make here,like sebring,Miltek,jetex and supersprint to name a few,whatever you do don't just change the back box,if your gonna do it then do it properly and change the whole system,again look to spend a couple of hundred here as well! I hope this has helped you,check out that web site and shop around!! Mike.

Take it easy Mark,didn't think i was ignoring you and i definitely did read ALL your post,did you actually read all of mine,have i struck a nerve ending?? Where have i contradicted my self,would help if you pointed it out then i might have a chance to better explain what i meant! Mike. Mark,This was the post i was replying to with regards to Prayer not MAKING God heal you! Mike

Ok Praying dosen't MAKE God heal,when praying for healing,you are RERQUESTING that God heals the one being prayed for,and somthing that is overlooked about healing is the persons beliefe that they have indeed been healed and i don't mean just thinking that your healed i mean truly believing in your healing and accepting it until the symptoms are gone.Ok how are nonbelievers healed then?i hear you ask. The very circumstance that brought you in front of a preacher or your TV to listen to a healing service usually means that you have tried everything else and this is a last ditch attempt to get well again and be rid of your illness,God will workin these cases to show the nonbeliever that God is real and that he can deliver you from thoes areas where all else has failed. You wouldn't have a great deal of faith in the beginning of this senario but by the end of your healing you would have received more than what all your previous attempts have resultede in. When a nonbeliever receives healing in this way,they usually become committed because of the seemingly impossible circumstance that has just been turned around by God! This is still totally up to them as God never takes away our free will. Mike Ok Dave, What religion causes a man to turn off a life support machiene,that his loved one is depending on? It's still seen as killing,still seen as being aq good person but nothing to do with religion! Mike

(Only through religion can good people kill in the belief that they are doing good) Onzaboymark,this comment was posted by Lewis,who by his comments i would say is a nonbeliever! I also totally disagree with this statment! Mike

Bennifer,i wasn't ignoring you dude,as i did state before my latest post about the comment referring to Noz's mother,this reply wasn't from me i was just posting it on behalf of a friend on another site,and if you have really read my replies you would have seen that i do infact try to answer everyones comments,especially when they are directed to me. That out of the way,in your post you refer to humans as being evolved from apes and that it's scientifically proven! This is news to me as i had thought that it hadn't been proven yet,where did you get this info from as i'm sure that you are wrong! I'm going to attempt to explain to you the reason why we differ so much in our ideas of the bible and what it means to us as christians. You say that it was written by man and yes you are 100% right,but the most important part which nonbelievers can't possibly get there heads round is the fact that when the bible was written by man,man was under the influence of the Holy Spirit and this is the only way the bible could be written! An example to help you with this is in the book of Exodus when Moses was writing the Ten commandments(this was the second time they were written after Moses destroyed the first set in anger at Aaron and the Isrealites) he was in direct contact with God. God used Moses(a man) to write the commandments and this could only have been done by a man under the influence of God(the holy spirit) I as a christian believe in the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit and i feel that this is a good example of it.God on the outside giving Moses the ten commandments and at the same time,on the inside of Moses enabling him to write them. You also refer to the bible as being a collection of good stories or an epic,ok,to the nonbeliever the bible can't possibly be anything more than just a book, reading material,but like i said earlier the difference between believers and nonbelievers is the presence of the Holy Spirit,this is why when i read the bible i feel connected to it and when you or any nonbeliever reads the bible it can only be a book or a collectoin of good stories to you. You also say that i have no proof that God exists! Do you have any proof that God doesn't exist!! You see,for you who can only see the world through logic,there just simply can't be any proof that would make you see that God does exist ,i on the other hand see things differently,i see that as a christian my belief is built up on faith,the faith i have in a God whom can't be seen is fed by the Holy Spirit who guides me through life,the Holy Spirit lives in me,but where is the evidence i hear you asking,the evidence is in my total belief in God,just the fact that you question my belief tells me that you are curious about God otherwise why would you bother,and it's that same seed of curiosity that led me to seek answers and find out the truth for myself some fifteen years ago now! Finally(i hope) Fifteen years ago when i found Christ,i wasn't looking for him,i had my youth and good health.So here is my testimony for all of you guys who want to see what made me turn to Christ Well guys, this forum really is going from strength to strength,and now we have a Testimony section,God is pleased with this,I know!! Ok,I haven't always been a Christian,in fact i was quite the opposite.Yeah,i went to church when i was younger but that was just because i was made to go. When i reached my early teens,my parents asked me if i wanted to carry on going to church,to which i replied NO! so that was that,and i didn't have to go any more! Well,a few VERY Promiscuous relationships later and now in my early twenties,i decided that it would be a good idea to start smoking,and i had also developed a taste for alcohol. My smoking developed in to a taste for Marijuana and what started of as just a weekend spliff gradually turned in to a bit of a habit.I used to work for BT,and most lunch times i would be in my red and white tent or in the van getting "well cherry!" until i lost that job. Things started to go down hill, My smoking grew at an alarming rate,i couldn't hold my jobs and my girlfriend then started to cheat on me. Life just seemed so rubbish,always in det,constantly a victim of circumstance,NOTHING would go right for me! I had,and still have a very good friend and her name is Shryel,now i really wanted to get it on with her and once or twice i was sucessfull,but one day i went to see her with evil intentions on my mind and God had other plans for me! We both new another girl called Natasha(Natty) for short and she had just got saved,the problem was that she happened to be visiting the same day i had decided to go and see Shryel! Funny,i remember saying"i hope that christian girl doesn't start preaching to me,cause i won't have it" but how totally wrong i was!! This was the conversation that was about to change my life: NATTY:Hello mike! Me:Hay natty,what's up! NATTY:Oh,Nothing much,how are you?? Me:I'm good thanks! NATTY:Have you heard,I'm a christian now?? Me:Yes,i've heard............ NATTY:Do you believe in GOD?? Me:YES!!!!!!!!!!!! NATTY:Have you been baptized then?? Me:NO,BUT I'VE BEEN CHRISTENED AND CONFIRMED!!!!!!!!! NATTY:Oh,so you haven't been baptized,prayed the sinners prayer or asked God to forgive you of all your sins?? Me:No!!!! NATTY:Well,if you don't do this YOUR GOING TO HELL!!!! On that, note she turned and walked out of the room!! Now,i'm already feeling down and out,life had been kicking me in the teeth for a few years,i'd had a smoke,realized that i wasn't going to get any from Shryel and this so called friend had just told me that i'm giong to HELL!! I just couldn't let it rest(but this was ALL in God's plan!!) i went after her and challenged her about her last statement,whish she promptly repeated, IF YOUR NOT SAVED,YOUR GOING TO HELL!! I told her that she couldn't leave it like that,and that she would have to explain,so we excused ourselves and went into another room where we could talk more about what she had said. She started telling me about how good God is and about how the world has nothing to offer me of any lasting value.She would read scriptures inbetween talking to me and it was all what i really needed! The thing that turned my hart to Christ,the actual moment i was saved was when the strangest of things started to happen. While she was talking to me,i would have a question or a thought in my head and as soon as it popped up,Natty would say"I've got a word for you,and that word would be the answer to the question that i had just thought of,or a comforting reassurance of the EXACT thought i had!! This coupled with a tingeling feeling all over my entire body the whole time was what showed me just how real God is! We were talking and praying for hours,and didn't even realise the time,i still had a two hour journey home but i had to drop Natty of first.When we were leaving she said that God had just given her a scripture for me but i was to read it when i got home.The scripture was Luke18v18-29,Now the reason that this scripture is so significant is that when we were going to the car to take Natty home,i was silent due to the fact that i was asking God a few things,these things being,How can i follow you Lord when i like girls and sex so much,i love drinking,ok i can give up the smoking but what about all of my jewelry(I used to whear a LOT of rings and bracelets,chains and ear ring!!LOL). That scripture was a direct answer to the questions i was asking on the way to the car,it talks about how it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God(read it,and you'll get my drift) So,i was truly saved,i stopped all casual relationships,smoking,drinking to get drunk(still have a beer or a brandy at the weekend!!Lol) and took off all my jewelry apart from a bracelet which my mother had given me for my 21st.I told god that i'd just keep wearing this one,it was really nice and even had a safety clasp on it so it wouldn't drop off my wrist if it came unfastened.Then without warning, it just fell off in the shower,just like that!! I looked up and just said YES LORD!! and never put it on again! I've been saved for fourteen years this summer,i've had my fair share of up's and down's,my mother now rests with the Lord(God bless you mum) I met Rose when i got saved(i knew her before,but wasn't interested in virgin church girls) Sorry Lord! we married after seven years of courtship and now have two lovely children Lashaan-Rene and Joshua! In the last three years i've been the closest to God that i've ever been,I know he is real,i've seen real miracles and he has performed wonders in my life.I am truly glad that he saved a retch like me and i intend to give my life to him! If you are reading this and you haven't fallen asleep yet,i hope that you are truly blessed by this,i've never written down my trstimony before and i've even left some of it out,guess i should write a book.One thing for sure is that the Lord has called me to talk to MEN both saved and unsaved,and why not,afterall,i know about both sides of the coin Lol!! So be blessed,and i hope that this testimony helps sombody!! Mike. Bennifer just to add to your last comment,If you got something positive from The Simpsons which made you feel better about life,that feeling would only last for a given time,but what i get from the holy Spirit and my belief is constant and will last forever,don't forget,the difference between christians and nonchristians is the Holy Spirit which makes ALL the difference! I hope i've answered your reply now dude. Mike.

Starting to expect this kind of comment from you dude! Mike.

Remember onzaboymark,it's not me who's replying to this post at the moment,i'm just pasting a reply from (CB) on a christian biker forum but i would like to add one very important thing that realy sorts out why things seem so impossible to you but to us they are very possible,and it's simply because we actually have more than a skin and bone belief in both what we read in the bible and what we feel from God. I'm not expecting you to understand this,but i wasn't allways saved and i too shared the same point of view as you do now,reading the bible is more than just trying to read a book to the committed christian,when you believe in christ and are FULLY committed to being a christian,the bible becomes a part of you and in some respects it comes alive in you,but that can only be experienced by somone who is fully committed! and when you are fully committed to Christ you gain an understanding of christianity that you simply can't get from being a nonbeliever! Mike.

I know this was on page three but my brother in christ wanted to reply to a few of you,so here it is from CB!! Hey Mike. I registered on the forum, but it wont let me reply to that topic, which is really annoying!! so I guess you'll just have to do the honours for me again! Rich> (sorry, I'm not picking on you...) RicH_87 wrote: Can you honestly say you can read that post back and think, "yeh i'm making perfect sense"? I seriously can't believe you believe it all, and even call it the TRUTH. I obviously can't piss on you god fueled bombfire but all i can say is.....wow, you really can't see any flaws or inconsistencies? any impossibilities or just plain made up nonsense? I'm not saying don't believe in God, but am i the only one that reads/hears about parts of the bible and just laughs at how rediculous it sounds? OK, I really should've said that I believe this to be the truth. And, if you can show me any flaws/inconsistencies/contradictions in the Bible, then please show them to me! There are some, I will agree with that, BUT most of them, if not all, are to do with mis-translation. However, probably 99.9% of the Bible has been translated very well. And it could just be made up nonsense, but I have found almost every single time I've faced a challenge or something and I've gone to the Bible for help, it (or should I say, GOD) has been able to help me. Also, check this out. This shows that the New Testament is more reliable than the philosophical works of Herodotus or Thucydides, which are generally taken to be complete truth! Is it not possible that they are 'just plain made up nonsense'? You know, there was a guy called Paul who wrote about a 3rd of the New Testament. He wrote a load of letters to churches and stuff, and in 1 Corinthians chapter 2 verse 14, which is one of the letters he sent to the church in Corinth, he says "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." which, no offence, sounds exactly like you! (Not just you, but also other people are the same.) Don't you think this shows that the Bible isn't just made up nonsense? And this is only one tiny part of millions of bits in the Bible which relate, almost uncannily, to people today. Like I said before, I have found the Bible so helpful almost every single time I've faced a challenge. Quote: wha? god gave us what now? do you belive in evolution then or not? do you think humans are the perfect creation and that our intelligence, concious mind and thought processes were all blueprinted and mapped out? Cos if i was going to create a race it would be a hell of a lot better than what 'god' has 'given' us. Um, I didn't say owt about evolution. And I didn't say that I thought we humans are a perfect race either! Quite the contrary! We are complete screw-ups! We were, when first created, perfect (that's Adam and Eve). But then sin came into the world, and that's the fall of humans, and sin has been in the world ever since. And that is why Jesus came to die on the cross, so that we could be forgiven. Quote: who says it's the truth? what exactly makes it the truth? the truth is something that can be proved with facts, something which the bible hasn't got at all. OK, I should've said I believe this is the truth, as I said earlier. And I'm not going to say that the Bible has proven facts (apart from there was a guy called Jesus who did die and do all that he did as it says in the Bible and did some wierd things (which the Bible calls miracles)), but can I ask, do you think that the Big Bang is truth? Or that we evolved from tiny one celled organisms? Because no one was alive when the Big Bang was supposed to happen, and no one was around to see that one-celled organisms became humans over a few billion years. (I'm talking about macro-evolution here - I know micro-evoltion/adaption is true, because that has been proven) Now this could well be true, I'm not saying the Big Bang didn't happen, and I'm not saying we didn't come from one-celled organisms. But I am saying they are not FULLY proven things, they are just theories. GOD may well have used evolution to creat us. However, there may just be a load of similarities between us and apes which point to evolution, but actually they may just be coincedences. Also, if the Big Bang is true, then there MUST have been an intelligent design behind it, as IT HAS BEEN PROVED that explosions do not give an organised product (e.g. Earth and living things). That intelligent design may not be the GOD that I and many other people know, but it does show that there is something. (Lewis> what I just said is in answer to what you said too, Quote: There is a theory called intelligent design (God based) in america which has been proved wrong but is still on the verge of being tought along side evolution in schools. ) Quote: Tell me, why have we never found the cave that jesus was ressurected from?, why have we never ever dug up anything, or even got any of the famous artifacts that appear in many of the tall tales in the bible in safe keeping, becasue they never existed. Its like trying to prove that Harry Potters goblet of fire is real, that i can walk down to the local museum and see it. Or that i could perhaps buy dorethy's magic slippers on ebay, becasue after all, they are 100% real. I think you mean Grave. And actually, they have found it (or what is almost certainly it). It's in Jerusalem, and has more historical evidence for being Jesus' grave than the other one which could be it (of course they don't know if it is the one, becuase no one that was around when Jesus was buried is alive today). In fact, I'm going to Jerusalem and I will go and see this tomb. It's called the Garden Tomb. As for the famous artifacts, who cares? Since Jesus' times, people have been claiming they have got 'artifacts' that are holy and all this stuff, things like pieces of the cross or pieces of cloth from the robes which Jesus wore, and they range to mega strange things like milk from Mary's bosom or whatever. It's a bit stupid. I went to Rome in the summer, and went to St. Peter's (the place where the Pope lives), and in St. Peter's Square (which is the massive square in front of St. Peter's) there is a massive basilica, which has a box at the top. And apparently there is the only surviving piece of the cross inside this tiny little box, about 100 feet up in the air on top of this basilica. Err....right. I really doubt that is true. (I don't think that) there are any 'relics' or 'artifacts' left from Jesus' time, and to be honest, I don't care. It would be a bit stupid to base my faith on some piece of clothing, or some old wood that could have come from anywhere. I don't need relics or artifacts to have faith in GOD. Quote: Its a FACT that throughout history, mankind has invented explainations for things they can't explain any other way. Medical conditions were based on evil sprits until scientists proved that they were physical illnesses and could be cured through medicine. It's also a FACT that people have been prayed for when they are ill and they have been cured much faster than doctors prescribe, or even they are healed from things which have no cure. For example, when I was at a Christian Conference back in the Summer called Soul Survivor, a guy was at the skatepark they had and he fell badly and actually couldnt move for about 2 hours - whenever, he did move he screamed out in pain. Anyway, he went to Hospital, and everybody at the conference prayed for him and he came back that night, and he should've at least stayed over for a night the doctors were saying. Now, are you telling me that all that is just coincedence? benno wrote: How did the once accepted way of life become something that people would actually find uncomfortable, possibly scary? How many people here get really edgy when talking to christians (sorry guys, you're the worst in my experience) about belief/fate/whatever because they're going to go off on some huge mission in defence of what they believe? (There RicH, I'm off your back (for now)). Benno, I wanted to say this: As a Christian, I believe that the Devil (or Satan, Lucifer, the Enemy, whatever you want to call him) is present on the Earth. I believe it is him who makes people edgy (and frequently hostile and to the point of killing us Christians) when people get onto the topic of anything to do with Christianity because he knows it's the Truth and, because he is a fallen angel and was banished from Heaven by GOD and therefore despises GOD, wants as little people or even nobody to follow GOD and at the same time get rid of anyone who does follow GOD. Lewis> Quote: I do not agree with what the church are doing, in my experience they convert people when they are low and depressed offering them hope and a point to life. Are you sure that applies to everyone though? are you sure it doesnt just apply to you? And finally, to conclude this epic post: RicH_87 wrote: why did you say that? what will happen if i don't believe, like i haven't done for the past 8 years or so? Will my soul be in torment for eternity? becaue i certainly won't be able to feel physical pain after i've died and my stone cold body is 6ft under. Or better yet, what do YOU believe will happen if you don't believe what the bible says? Do you really hink Hell is real? Its just a scare tactic made up to stop people doing bad things, like toppiling the monarchy waaay back when the church had all the power. and again, MadManMike wrote: As for death? Who know's what'll happen... and it has been asked or it has come up several other times, and although some of you have said it's not fair to ask us guys (and benno, you are right, we dont have authority to say exactly what happens, but we can say what we believe happens), I would still like to say this. Imagine Heaven is like the most incredible trials spot EVER. There is nothing else like it anywhere in the world. It has everything, from technical to lazy-boy stuff, from Natural to Street, anything you want to do, it's got it. And the best thing is, it's right on your doorstep, it's riding distance away. The only thing is, it's quite well hidden, and only a handful of people know where it is. One day, one of your riding buddies comes up to you and tells you about this place. You've never heard of it before and you never knew it existed. Now, you can either believe your mate or not. thing is, it doesn't matter whether you believe or not, it still exists. One day, you go to the place with your mate. Lets say you don't believe him at all, and you're so confident that it doesn't exist that you then don't go with your bike. But when you get there, you find it does exist and you look like a complete chump! Now lets rewind, and say you do believe, and at the first chance you get you grab your bike and go with your mate to the place and there it is! Just as he said! And you spend all day there, but you can't get enough of it. The end of the day comes too quickly and you have to leave, but you don't want to. This place is amazing, and you're so glad that you believed your mate rather than being stubborn and saying it can't be true because nothing else like that exists. In which scenario would you rather be in? Think about it...

Firstly Lewis i prefer to see it as standing by what i beleive in as apposed to defending it(i don't have to defend it God does that for me) and the fact that you feel that christianity is full of holes goes back to what i mentioned earlier about not being able to take on board what is written in the bible because you simply do not believe it! You know that even in the Bible people killed after the ten commandments were issued and in time God's wrath was felt for this. With regards to the leaders being christians,i would argue that although they are christians they are not committed christians and there is a difference! Would i go to war or stand and pray,My bible tells me that i'm to respect thoes who are in athourityso if ordered i would go,but there are christians in the millitary who are not soldiers as there is so much more to the milatery than being on the front line holding a gun.Also just as i have a right as a christian not to sware in court, i also have the right to abstain from fighting for my country.I know he was not a christian but Muhammed ali did this back in the day,yes he was imprisoned for it but his belief was intact. Mike

Thats more like it!You guys are offering very good strong opposition,a real challenge for me and CB.Firstly to the guys who i replayed to as being disrespectful,thanks for replying back and i hope you can see where my comments came from,and no,i have no intention of being disrespectful back! Rich-87 to answer a point that you made which really sticks out in my mind "what would happen if i went around the world and destroyed every copy of every religious book/scripture/teaching, ever made?? would people just forget about religion altogether, would they remember it and re-write it, would god reappear and re-teach us all the ways of life, would even a new religion start up?" Dude this is just like saying if i went around and burned all of the highway code publications,would people then stop driving or forget how to drive! i'm suer you can see that the answer in No they wouldn't The real part of being a christian(notice i didn't say religion here as i can only comment on christianity being a christian) is having a personal relationship with God ,if i neglect my bible for any period of time that doesn't stop my relationship with God because that's based on my personal belief in him.My bible helps me for sure to get a level of understanding about the history of my belief and the future of it too(Revelation) but it's only a part of the bigger package. To tell you the truth,we could go on with our differences for ever,but like i've previously said,a nonbeliever couldn't hope to understand the attitude of a believer and to a believer,the bible opens up in to more than just words this is why it would seem to make sense to me and not to you,not because i'm an idiot but because it's more than just words on a page to me,it's more like a manual to understanding my direct link with God,but i'm seriously not expecting you to understand what i'm on about,and thats not because i think you are all idiots,i actually am enjoing the challenge from you guys,because it's helping me to get stronger and more knowledged in my belief,It's simply because you guy's are nonbelievers so the bible would never mean the same to you as it does to me! (Only through religion can good people kill in the belief that they are doing good) Lewis this statement is not true for Christianity(which is what i thought we were talking about). Just to touch on death,As christians we DON'T go through life just waiting for death to come,like it will save us from life on earth or something like that,the bible teaches us to live life and live it to the fullest,other religions MIGHT view death as being better than life because of a reward of some sort but this is not so for christianity.We see life on earth as being precious AND when we die we believe that if we have been faithful then our souls will reside in Heaven,this is not the same as living for the day you die so that you can escape to Heaven,No,we live a full life and we hope that our souls will carry on in an even better place which is heaven. And yes i do believe that there is a Hell,it would be impossible for me to believe in Heaven if i didn't believe in Hell (this is another example of the different attitudes between believers and nonbelievers!) Someone mentioned about the bible (Moses) saying that it's ok to kill and rape and they commented on when Someone was told to kill their son and others were told to kill men and old women. Firstly one of the commandments says Though shall not kill,The story of a man being told to kill his son that you refer too is the story of Abraham and isaac,Abraham was being tested by God to see his level of faith,God never intended for Isaac to be killed by his father,thats why when Abraham raised his dagger to kill his only son at the Lords command,God sent an angel to stop him,and God provided a ram for Abhaham to kill instead as a sacrifice to God,and if you read the passage you will see how God rewarded Abraham for his level of faith in God. As for God telling people to rape,you've got me there,i don't know of anywhere in the bible where God told Someone to commit rape,and as for the killing,don't forget the old testament was a time before God's will was known to man and all kinds of things were going on and thats why the ten commandments were established to give the people of those times some guidelines! Sorry if i haven't answered some of your questions or commented on your posts but you guys really making me work here! Mike.

This senario wouldn't be the same if you were out on the street or riding though would it ash.The fact that you actually attend the youth club stops it being an invasion of your privacy too as it's part of the clubs agenda and you have a choice in attending or not! Mike

Just can't understand why you have to be so disrespectful,dude why don't you actually read the bible and find out what actually happened with the bread and the wine,might help you to not make comments like that. For the record nobody is shoving religion in your face or taking your privacy away,If your being asked about your view on christianity and you don't want to talk about it,just walk/ride away simple! Mike

I don't mind a negative view point Rowly,but your reply was totally disrespectful. Maybe you should read the whole topic befor you post,it might give you an understanding on what's being discussed here!! Mike

Ok Tomm,the only sports i take an interest in are all extreme,and yet,i'm a christian,so what's wrong with sharing a view point with a few fellow sportsmen.In answer to your question,i will say that it is a good idea.No matter what club or sport your in(with very few exceptions) there will always be someone who will benefit from hearing about God,so it might not be for you,but it will definitely be for someone and they should have the chance to hear about God weather they play ice hockey or trials ride for a living!! The christian has a goal to share,and that's just what we do,share.If you don't accept, thats fine but that wont stop christians from sharing,it's what we do,this is why we seem to care!! The upside that you mention is our reassurance,unfortunatually you won't have this reassurance unless you are committed to God and believe i him.as i've mentioned previously,i didn't believe before but i do now! and if i can change,anybody can! Mike

Firstly God in my beleif is a HE so i refer to him as a he!! Next,who said God made aids and ebola?? and surley you realise that these conditions are not just found in wicked people! The bible(which guids all christians) tells us that there is one God,but many gods,look at the way it written,the capital G in God signifies the one true God of the Christian beleif and god with a small g signifies the idols and other things that are worshiped. yes you are right about it being our choice to go to the barbers,but natural disasters don't operate under choice,they are as it is stated in your post,Natural.While i believe God does have a hand in Natural happenings, i also believe that he has a reason for what he does,but the man who dosn't believe in God,is hardly going to begin to understand him or his ways! Mike

Dude,that's like saying If barbers exsist,why do we have long hair!! Bad things are gonna happen dude,it's how we deal with them that makes the difference! Mike

Rich_87 Don't give up to early man,my mate (CB) wants to have the chance to answer your last post,so have a read and see what you think!! Rich (and everyone else too, I guess)> I know which bit you're talking about the woman being offered for sex. It's in Judges, and it's not saying we should ALL do that, it's just saying that it happened, and it was BAD. The mob which took the girl actually were coming to rape the guest. But just cos it's in the Bible doesn't mean we're going "Oh it's in the Bible, so therefore it must be the right thing to do!" NO!! Not at all. The people had turned away from GOD and were living sinful lives, and, to be fair, a fair few people in this world are the same (turning their backs on GOD, not bum-raping people) - myself included at times! Also, on sex? Haha, BIG misconception - GOD does NOT hate sex! Think about it, He created it the way it is! But He also knows it's emotional powers, and so said "Right, to save you from hurting yourselves or anyone else, make sure you only have sex inside a promise; Marriage." Also, back in Moses' times, sex was a sign to show that the two people had become one; I've heard that people weren't properly married until they had had sex to show they were one, bound by an agreement. That's why He said not to commit adultery. You need to understand, the first few books of the Old Testament are the Law (i.e. GOD setting the rules for the Jews to follow). At the end of the Old Testament are the prophet's books, and in the middle are the 'poetic' books. The NEW Testament is not a contradiction, it's a fulfilment of the Old Testament. We no longer have to spend a week in the desert isolated from everyone else because we ate a piece of pork and spend a week washing or something, because Jesus fulfilled that by dying on the cross. The Isralites in the Old Testament had to do all the washing and cleansing and sacrificing and so on and so forth to make themselves right before GOD. Because GOD cannot be near any sin, so we have to be made clean in His sight. The Jews had to sacrifice a pure Lamb that had no defeciencies or anything, and the blood of the animal represented GOD's forgiveness over their sins. But because Jesus died on the cross, we no longer have to do this. Jesus is often referred to as the Lamb of GOD, the pure and spotless Lamb - Jesus died once and for all for our sin, He was the perfect sacrifice, and now, if we ask GOD for forgiveness and actually mean it, He will forgive us. He sent His one and only Son to die so that we may have eternal life. This is Grace. Grace is a totally undeserved gift, given to us by GOD. We shouldn't have it, but that is just how much He loves us. And to me, that's mindblowing. You might think I'm shoving this down your throat, but I have to tell you that what 've said is the TRUTH, and it's up to you to accept it or not (I strongly advise that you do!). I think people don't like being told about Jesus or GOd or anything because deep down you know it's true and that if you accept it you will have to change but you don't want to. I tell you, that change is the best change there is...EVER! So do it, really, you should. Oh, and I think this thing they are doing is great, you know, the thing that got this whole topic started! I think it's a bit silly to be putting a name to it ('Fresh Expressions'), or even that there is a news bullitin about it! I mean, this type of thing has been going on for a long time!! Posted on behalf of (CB) from another bike forum! Mike

Hi again,just adding a comment from another christian biker friend of mine! My name is Aidan, and I'm a Christian. I've read all this, and thought I should say some stuff. I'm not going to shove anything down your throat (well, technically your eyes), but I would ask you to take some time to read this. Firstly, I'd like to ask how many of you think of the philosopical works of people like Herodotus, or Thucydides, or Tacitus? when I know this, I'll show you something else. RicH_87> Actually, there are no contradictions in the Bible. However, there are people who interpret things completely wrongly. And when they then, as in the example you gave, kill somebody because they thought that person was doing something against GOD, it's not the Bible that is being contradictory, it is the person who is twisting what the Bible teaches and being hypocritical

This one is a classic lol!! Mike

Charel, Could you not have just said Black people?? Mike