Mr Plod

I myself and pretty much everyone I've spoken to agrees that we'd probably all do the same but the fact is he didn't have the right to shoot them. Common Law states you're allowed to defend yourself as long as your actions are justified... The fact he shot the guy in the back shows the suspect had his back towards the gun and was fleeing the scene so as far as justified action... Using the gun to scare them off was justified but shooting them as they fled wasn't in the eyes of a jury. Like I said everyone I've spoken to before about it agrees they'd have done the same and he's a hero as such in their eyes as well as mine but unfortunately with the justice system how it is in the present day the criminals have more rights than the victims...

In response to Ash's post and so on... You're completely right in the sense we have targets to meet... But with PCSO's our targets are more Fixed Penalty Notices and Public Notices for Disorder purely because that's what our powers allow us to cover. So a PCSO isn't really just picking on a Biker or skater as such it's purely because our Inspectors give us targets which ultimately are to dish out fines for riding on the pavement and so on. We are allowed to give fines for Section 5 Public Disorder Offences which could be applied to the "chavs drinking on the street corners" but with all PND's for section 5 we're told to get a unit down and administer the fine and then the person will more than likely be arrested for the offence as well... So yes you're correct with the target thing. As for the getting arrested for Whacking someone breaking into your house... As long as it's justifiable and it's just to get the suspect on the floor or to stop him attacking you then it's perfectly legal. Tony Martin was unfortunatly wrong in what he did as the suspects were running away when he shot and killed one of them so his actions weren't justifiable where as if they'd been attacking him and he feared for his life then he would have been praised for what he did. This world is seriously messed up though I must admit

Just covered fixed penalty notices all day today so any questions then just ask whilst they're still hot on my mind before tomorrows exam...

I just realised that you'd posted a link to a video in one of your earlier posts Mark. Having just watched it a minute ago it has annoyed me... The way that PCSO acted was way out of line and gives the rest of us a bad name with behaviour and an attitude like that. Telling a member of the public to shut up certainly isn't on and I hope the gentleman filming put in a complaint to the PCSO's senior officer. I can see why alot of you think we're idiots but as with everything it only takes one person to give the rest of us a bad name so I hope you don't think of myself or most of the other PCSO's as being as incompetent and as stupid as that PCSO was.

Mind if you quote exactly what part you'd like me to address? Alot of people just hate the uniform. As simple as that. They see us in a uniform and just automatically don't like us but whereas with a Police Officer they're called to an incident and deal with it then leave... PCSO's are there to provide victim support and someone that people can talk to and express their concerns. When patrolling we're told to walk slowly and stop every now and then just so people can engage in conversation with us and it's all about building relationships with the people. If they express their concerns to us then we'll try and get the problem sorted. When I visited my station and met my safer neighbourhoods team on my induction day, they were telling me how two of the pcso's were approached by a gentleman who was very ill. He was threatening to kill himself and was standing between two parked cars and threatening to jump infront of the next car that drove past. They managed to calm him down and escorted him home where they called the LAS and got him checked over. They spoke to the mother and she told them she was having trouble coping with her son and needed help. Because she's told them that they've been able to set her up with a care assistant who will visit the gentleman and just give his mum a chance to relax and let someone else take over... They've therefore built a relationship with the woman and her son and have offered to visit just to check up from time to time whereas a normal police officer wouldn't be able to. I'm off out now to get my boots but like I said if you wouldn't mind quoting the part you'd like me to address then I'll try and answer when I get back later on. Thanks

I know it may seem like I'm trying to argue here but I'm not. I don't want to cause trouble and so on but I think it's a bit unfair when people just slate us for infact doing our job (Not directed at you and most of the people on here but more of a rant...). Different forces across the country have different ways of policing but here in the suburbs of london, most of the people I've spoken to think PCSO's are invaluable. It depends where you live really...

Double post sorry Our role is non-confrontational yes but whether we choose to step in or not is of our own discretion. If I see someone getting the living shit kicked out of them then I'm not going to simply walk away, I'm going to try and split it up somehow, whether that's distracting the suspect or jumping in and forcing the attacker off the victim... All down to our own discretion but yes we are told in training to just walk away and radio in for back up. But even PC's are told to do the same... Like I said everyone is entitled to their opinions and thats fine by me. I love my job so far and I can't wait to get out on borough but thats purely because I can't see myself doing a simple 9-5 job behind a desk all day. I like to be out and about and public services is something I've always wanted a career in. I'm hopefully using the PCSO role as a step into the Regular Police but I've always wanted to become a FireFighter. That in itself is near on impossible to apply for so hopefully this role and experience I gain from it will help me pursue my career further.

Haha I wasn't saying you was just that alot of people believe what they read in the papers like that 10 year old boy that drowned in the quarry that time whilst "two PCSO's stood by and watched"... Wasn't at all like that. Yet they gave it a full page of coverage but a few weeks later two PCSO's saved a woman from a canal and it only got a paragraph of coverage... We're told in no uncertain terms are we allowed to go into the water. If we do then it's completely of our own doing and we face disciplinary action for doing it but we'll also get a commendation so it's a bit of a stupid situation... So you're willing to assault a Police officer? Just because we're PCSO's it doesn't mean you have the right to hit us and if you do then we'll more than likely fight back using what we feel is reasonable force and this could easily result in you receiving a broken wrist or arm and so on... Only difference being, you'll get charged with assault and we won't because our use of force was justified... Yeah that's fair enough. We are a cheaper "police officer" but alot of the time we're first on scene and do save peoples lives... Also especially where I live PCSO's have been used to massive effect and crime actually has dropped. As for the all the information being programmed in... In a way yes but alot of what I've said is just common sense and that's what being a PCSO is all about. You're not going to remember everything from your training and you're constantly learning and the way we deal with a situation will differ with each PCSO but that's because we're all using our common sense and then applying our training where needed. I don't mean for what I say to come across almost robotic but it's how I see things personally and even if I wasn't in the job I'd still praise and respond the way I do... That's just how I am.

Haha thanks. Much appreciated. Can handle myself though...

Depends how PCSO's are used. Each Borough has its own way of policing... I can see you're still not sold on the whole PCSO idea which is fair enough as everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions. Just I don't think it's very fair when people slag us off especially when they believe what they see in the papers (The Daily Mail hate us). When we do something 'wrong' it is plastered across a whole page but when we do something excellent like save someones life, we get minimal coverage e.g. a 2"x2" box...

I agree with you and the inner city policing (like I said in my previous post) PCSO's should only really be deployed in the suburbs and where there are highly populated areas (for living not working). Although the British Transport Police PCSO's are excellent and I can't fault what they do in anyway. Everyone obviously remembers 7/7, but PCSO's played a major role in saving lives that day and even Police Officers said they couldn't have done it without our help.... What about the Tiger Tiger incident last year... The first on scene was a Sergeant and 5 of his PCSO's who evacuated the area and set up cordons and if the bomb had detonated, then they would have saved countless lives. And of course the Terrorist raids in Forest Gate. Intel which was gathered by PCSO's The fact is we are effective (Maybe no inner London) but certainly in outer London and that's not only intel gathering but just being a deterrent and being there for someone to talk to and express their concerns. And I've taken it all to heart Mark!

HA! Sorry but it is a real job... You might have encountered a few that are 'on their high horse' but almost all the PCSO's around here aren't like that... I believe PCSO's were brought about because of the high risk of terrorism (brought in after September 11th...) and you'll find most our powers come under the terrorist act e.g. we can maintain a cordon because of a terrorist incident but you'll find we're used to man cordons for any incident which strictly speaking, we shouldn't be... Yes granted we're all entitled to our own opinions and I'll agree with you on some points, e.g. Inner City Boroughs like Westminster and so on aren't really a place where a PCSO should be imo. When I went for my induction day we was told that anyone who's a PCSO in boroughs like Westminster will just be like tour guides in the sense that they don't have real crime to deal with and all they're doing is giving directions to tourists which is true. Inner City boroughs are mainly businesses and so on compared to the suburbs like Waltham Forest, Hackney, Tower Hamlets and so on which are mainly populated by houses and areas for living in (I guess what I'm saying is, inner city is for working in more than living in and the suburbs are for living in more than working). So PCSOs aren't actually benefiting a community inner city because there isn't really one... I'm working in the suburbs (I won't say where because I don't particularly want to and I'm advised not to) and my beat is of a highly populated area and contains a number of schools and my main role is to build a rapore (sp?) with the public to which they can then feel trust towards me and provide me with information of any criminal activity in the area e.g. drug dealing and so on. The reason being is that I'll then write the information down in my pocket notebook and go back to the station and right a report up on the system. Little snippets of information will then be added when given to an officer and it'll build up a profile to which if serious enough, will be flagged and reviewed by senior officers and then action taken if required. Alot of the drugs raids that happen now and that raid yesterday involving 600 officers (which was in the papers yesterday...) all start with PCSO's gathering intel from the community and building up a profile which then provides a case and a reason for the raids... So I guess what I'm trying to say is we do make a difference, but as I said earlier, not inner city as communities are few and far between. Hope I've made sense and if not then highlight the areas you'd like me to explain about. Cheers

Sorry but being a PCSO myself with the Metropolitan Police I resent that comment. I'm currently doing my training at Hendon and it's an excellent course. Granted the training may be a little too short at only 6 weeks but most of the job is just Common Sense. Most of the PCSO's I've met when riding or just generally out on the street have been excellent... I'm not just saying that because I'm in the job myself but I feel we do a great job and like I said in the topic in NMC, we don't have to fine you and the chances are if it's the first time we've seen you riding on the pavement then we'll just ask you to get off and walk but if you've been warned before and you're seen on the pavement again on a number of occasions then it's obvious you haven't listened to us and so you deserve the fine... (Not that this is aimed at anyone in particular but if you've been warned before and persist in breaking the law, because that is what you infact are doing, then you deserve the fine...) Correct with the 30 minute thing though... and if you do walk off then we're told to leave you to it but we'll more than likely put your name out and so when you're next spotted, you'll more than likely be asked to account for yourself and just generally causing you a problem as you've caused us problems before... I haven't covered fixed penalty notices yet (the fines you get), but I'm pretty sure they're the same type of form as a Stop and Account (Which I have covered in training). Therefore when writing the fine it produces two copies, one of which we keep and then file and the other which is pretty much a receipt for yourself. So we can fine you as it is put onto the system and if you fail to pay the fine then it'll keep rising until you do pay or you get summoned to court (I think but I'll update this once we cover the topic in training). Providing us with a false name will just give us a quality reason to do a Name check on you so you might as well just be straight with us from the start... If we keep seeing you riding on the pavement then we'll just put your name and profile onto our system we have alerting all the other local officers that if they see you riding on the pavement then you've been warned before several times and to just dish out the fine straight away (Probably why the officers you're dealing with just dish out a fine straight away as you've been warned by other officers countless times before)... And just to add... In the Met and possibly other forces, We now have the power to stop you whilst you're riding. Might be worth thinking about in future when you're riding off as we do have the power to stop you now. Thanks

Which is what we're taught to do. Instead of going in and being aggressive and irrational won't help matters and if anything will make you aggressive towards us which is why we go in and pursuade you to move on and warn you instead of just giving you the fine...

Alot of forces prefer for people to go through training as a PCSO and then complete their years probation as a PCSO before settling themselves on a career in the Police. I'd ideally like to join the London Fire Brigade but it's so near on impossible to get an application pack let alone an interview that I've opted for a role as a PCSO as it should help me get the interview and I can refer back to experiences I've had during my time as a PCSO. If I don't make it into the Fire Brigade for whatever reason then providing I enjoyed what I did, I'd be looking to join as a Regular but alot of PCSO's enjoy the role so much as they get a sense of pride actually being out there just helping the community and dealing with people in a friendly manor and assisting them whereas if you was a regular, you're behind your desk most the day filling out paperwork and so see less of the community and more of the bad guys as your role is confrontational. It's probably not really making sense what I'm saying but I've been college all day training so I'm a bit tired but hopefully somewhere in that jargon is my point lol.

It's a tough thing... I wouldn't take it personally as they're supposed to stop anyone riding on the pavements but it just so happens as Trials seems to generally be ridden on pavements and so on that we're easy pickings but thats just part of riding trials now really... I can't really ride anymore myself... How can I dish out a fine for riding on the pavement and then later that day go home and get given a ticket for riding on the pavement myself... It compromises my job and I'll get pulled up on it and if it carried on I'd lose my job. When you sign up for the Police, people don't realise you actually end up letting them rule your life in a way... My shifts compromise of 7 and 6 day weeks and if need be my rest days canceled for any reason they like... If you're a regular officer then you have to carry your warrant card around with you at all times and if need be arrest a person anywhere in Great Britain. So you're always giving and required to give even when off duty...

The biggest gang thing mainly refers to london as we're the biggest Force (sorry it's service now it's gone all PC) in the world. There is approximately 50,000 employees in the MET whereas in the Greater Manchester Police Force there are only approx. 36,000 employees... I don't know how different it is where you live but PCSO's have made a big difference here in London and the surrounding area. We're a high visibility presence and are infact a deterrent and our main task is to gather intelligence for the reasons i stated earlier in the topic. An example is the Tiger Tiger night club incident in the West End last year... The terrorist car bomb parked outside the night club Tiger Tiger. Although the London Ambulance Service were the first to spot the car and alert the police, the first on scene was infact a Sergeant and 5 PCSO's from his team. They assessed the situation and then set up a cordon and evacuated the premises. In the back of the car was 5 gas cylinders connected up to two mobile phones on the front seat of the car and on the floor and scattered around the inside of the car was nails. The idea being that the terrorist would ring the phones and the spark would set off an explosion so powerful it would have completely destroyed the block and considering the Tiger Tiger nightclub had 1700 revelers that night that could easily have been at least 2000 casualties and a horrific number of fatalities. During the whole thing both phones received 6 missed calls and it was only by sheer luck and the terrorists stupidity that he'd got the gas to oxygen mix wrong and it hadn't detonated. So we as PCSO's especially here in london have alot to deal with and do play a major role in making where we live a safer place.

On the back of that... I don't think the media itself help matters. The Daily Mail are very critical of what we do and in fact blow things out of proportion. An example being the incident involving the child drowning in the lake and the two PCSO's just stood there watching... What the paper didn't state was that the child was submerged under the water and so pinpointing their exact location was near on impossible in the murky waters. Also we're told not to put ourselves at risks by diving into the water as after all we all put ourselves at number one as it's only natural to do so. We all as humans have the right to life and to prevent the loss of life but just because the two PCSO's didn't dive into the water they were there radioing for back up and to direct all resources to the location and therefore that is still preventing the loss of life... Like I said unfortunatly the papers don't tend to agree...

Alot of officers don't want to be issued with a gun as they don't feel capable of pulling the trigger and don't feel the need of a gun whilst on their dutys The only reason they'd have for touching you would be if you became threatening and after warning you they would then feel their safety was paramount. That in it's self is enough reason for them to use self defence and so you "laying them out using reasonable force" would then be assualt on an officer of the law

As of this moment I'm unsure as we haven't covered it in class but as soon as we do I'll update... As for the arresting a PCSO, they'll probably use their officer safety training and act in self defence as you'll have man handled them thus assualting them. lol

Haha! News to me but some forces have additional powers. Like the British Transport Police PCSO's have the power of arrest but then again we all do in our right to "Civilian Arrest" someone when a crime has been committed... We do a lot of work in reality and aren't just paid to walk the streets causing a nuisance to people we stop and fine and so on... We'll attend meetings with the public to try resolve issues and also visit victims of crime to offer additional support or advice on how to secure their premises. In other words prevention of crime. You'll be surpised how many people will tell you how much of a deterrent you've been just by standing at the school gate during home time. A lot of officers use the term in an argument that "you may be in a gang, but we've got the biggest gang around", but it's true in the sense all it takes is the push of a button and you can have the whole borough's rapid response team there with you when needed. A little cheesy though I must say lol

We also have the power to stop people when riding and "don't quote me on this" but I think in the Met we're now able to stop cars as well but that'll come later in training...

Thank you. Finally someone with valid reasoning. I understand what you're saying about feeling intimidating but it's the uniform more than the individual wearing it. If the person is Assertive then they'll be fair and show you respect no matter who you are but they expect respect in return and for you to take them seriously.

We've been taught a structure called P.A.W P - Persuade - To pursuade the person in question that what they're doing is in fact an offence (but maybe they didn't realise it was or they have a legitimate reason for being on the pavement). A - Advise - We'll then advise the person that they're required by law to have lights and a bell and where they can purchase the items required. W - Warn - If the person is seen again after being warned then they've already been given the benefit of the doubt and so they haven't paid attention to the advice given and so we'll fine them as they're putting themselves and the public using the pavement at risk...

No, at least I don't think so but after reading your statement Dan I wouldn't be able to comment as I'm still in training and haven't covered that area yet and so I can't comment as I could be telling you the completely wrong thing. It seems a bit strange though and I'd maybe go to your local station to ask for the reason and an explanation as to how it works...