I-LikeMatchesDerFun Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) Hi, I've just spent the last three hours lacing up my new Echo rim. I ordered the rim and spokes from Tarty Bikes. I'm using my old hub from the last wheel. The problem I have is that after lacing it up and raking up the tension to about 60%, the hub isn't centered. I was very careful to put the same amount of turns on each nipple. When I look through the holes in the rim the driveside flange is centered in the hole and there is a major bulge out on the non-driveside spokes. The spoke lengths I got were 258mm for the driveside and 260mm for the non-driveside. Is this a problem with the spoke lengths? Should they be the same length? Or have I seriously messed up the wheel build (which I don't think I have). Would be grateful if anyone can give advice. I'll put up a pic of the wheel in the next few mins. Cheers, Steve Edited July 8, 2008 by I-LikeMatchesDerFun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cai Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Just tighten the non drive side spokes a couple of turns until the rim is sitting in the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 got the spokes in the correct side? usually the shorter length go on the drive side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-LikeMatchesDerFun Posted July 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 got the spokes in the correct side? usually the shorter length go on the drive side. Yep. 258mm spokes on the drive side. Gonna try and loosen the driveside a little and tighten the non-driveside and see how that works out. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrEvil270183 Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Where did you count turns from? Best place to start is get all nipple tightened up the the edge of thread on spokes, then do full turns from that point. As they get tight, start to use half and quarter turns. fine tuning as you go until the wheel is true is all directions with spoke tension even as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-LikeMatchesDerFun Posted July 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) Where did you count turns from? Best place to start is get all nipple tightened up the the edge of thread on spokes, then do full turns from that point. As they get tight, start to use half and quarter turns. fine tuning as you go until the wheel is true is all directions with spoke tension even as possible. Started with six full turns. Then 2 by 3 full turns and then until the thread started to poke out of the nipple. Then proceeded to do just one full turn on each nipple around the rim. Each spoke/nipple is tightened the same amount but the non-drivesdide are about 60% tensioned and the non-driveside about 20%. Think it must be the spoke lengths...... Steve Edited July 8, 2008 by I-LikeMatchesDerFun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psycholist Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Three things: 1. The spoke lengths look like they were chosen to be laced 4 cross rather than 3 cross. The end of the spoke should be flush with the back of the spoke nipple when the wheel is fully tensioned if the spoke lengths are exactly right. They should be within 2mm of this (Given spokes are available in 2mm increments). You'll never get tension on these spokes as they are. 2. Spokes from the left hub flange should be laced to the spoke holes offset to the left in the rim. Lacing them to cross over each other as you have (I think from the picture) will build a wheel with more lateral strength than standard lacing, but the spoke nipples are likely to bind in the rim as you try to turn them under tension as they're pulled at too tight an angle in the spoke hole in the rim. 3. Nice tablecloth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-LikeMatchesDerFun Posted July 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Three things: 1. The spoke lengths look like they were chosen to be laced 4 cross rather than 3 cross. The end of the spoke should be flush with the back of the spoke nipple when the wheel is fully tensioned if the spoke lengths are exactly right. They should be within 2mm of this (Given spokes are available in 2mm increments). You'll never get tension on these spokes as they are. 2. Spokes from the left hub flange should be laced to the spoke holes offset to the left in the rim. Lacing them to cross over each other as you have (I think from the picture) will build a wheel with more lateral strength than standard lacing, but the spoke nipples are likely to bind in the rim as you try to turn them under tension as they're pulled at too tight an angle in the spoke hole in the rim. 3. Nice tablecloth... Disassembled the hole thing earlier. Will try lacing it up using 4 cross tomorrow at work (Yes at work. There's nothing else to do). I used a mixture of the wiki and sheldon brown guide.....May have been my downfall. I'll let you know how I get on Cormac. Steve PS. I like the tablecloth too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonMack Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Try reading this too, http://ponkan.quickshareit.com/share/wheel...ng_10147354.pdf It's what I use for my wheel builds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-LikeMatchesDerFun Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Try reading this too, http://ponkan.quickshareit.com/share/wheel...ng_10147354.pdf It's what I use for my wheel builds Cheers Jon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR28 Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Any chance of a quick snap from each side? Hard to tell at the mo, but it looks a bit like the non drive side is 2x laced which would explain the issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-LikeMatchesDerFun Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Any chance of a quick snap from each side? Hard to tell at the mo, but it looks a bit like the non drive side is 2x laced which would explain the issue... I disassembled it last night at just laced it up again a while ago. Followed Jon's guide that he linked. I've built it up 3 cross again and I think it's sorted but I've yet to rack up the tension. In 3 cross, do you go over the first two crosses and underlace the last? Or will it be ok without underlacing? Cheers, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonMack Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 (edited) You can do it without underlacing but it just makes it a little stronger if you do underlace it. Edited July 9, 2008 by Mark King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psycholist Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 The strength of the wheel is if anything decreased by the interlacing of the spokes (Fretting between contacting spokes will eventually cause enough wear to reduce the spoke cross section enough to cause a failure - I've never seen this happen as it is likely to take several decades of high mileage use), the real benefit to interlaced spokes is that they place a side load on the spoke nipple, making it less likely to unscrew as it slackens. Don't forget to stress relieve the wheel after you've tensioned it. I've had one spoke fail in the wheels I've built and stress relieved so far. The wheel (A front wheel) was built in 2002 and has had over 10,000 miles XC/street/messing put on it. It also failed at the spoke threads rather than at the bend in the spoke where most wheels that haven't been stress relieved will fail, indicating that the stress relieving process was successful on seating the spoke properly into the hub flange. To stress relieve a wheel all I do is put on some leather gardening gloves and grab pairs of parallel spokes and squeeze them together hard enough to have my hands hurt by the time I've done a 32 spoke wheel, even with the gloves on. This will cause plastic deformation in the parts of the spokes that are close to their yield stress as a result of uneven contact pressure between the hub and spoke in particular. When the extra tension you have put on the spokes is released, the stress level in the spoke is now much less than it was before stress relieving, even though the spoke retains it's correct as built tension, keeping the wheel strong. Fatigue failure is the dominant form of non crash related failure in spokes (And pretty much all other bike parts) and fatigue life climbs exponentially as peak stress is reduced. This is why stress relieved wheels last longer and suffer far fewer spoke failures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-LikeMatchesDerFun Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Don't forget to stress relieve the wheel after you've tensioned it. Wheel is all built up and stress relieved. It is by no means perfect but I think It's pretty good for a first attempt (or third attempt at building the same wheel!) It is as goddamm true as I can get it and can't see any visible hops or lowspots in it. Thanks for all the info/advice. If you didn't live so far away Cormac, I'd have got you to build it! Would have saved me some hassle and there would lashings of jaffa caykes in it for you too! Thanks again lads, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psycholist Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Mmmmmm Jaffa Caykes ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR28 Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Awesome, good job! Glad it all went together in the end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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