Pazu Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Respectful hello... Anybody have tips as to what I should look for, frame geometry and component-wise, to fit my particular body type, which is 5'7", long torso, 165 lbs? Or any body type-to-bike tips at all, might help me figure out what would be best. My type of riding will be city, concrete, granite, steel, railings. I live in forest but work on college campus which has innumerable play objects and I will be taking advantage of that. I won't be competing, just satisfying my inner lust for balance. This is link to the bike I am buying (upgraded to 2012 frame), but the guy would build me anything I wanted, I think. http://topgears.ecra...0-disc-edition# Thanks for reading & any advise would be much appreciated. Looks to be a rainy day today in G.B. & vicinity; I'm hoping that somebody is stuck indoors today & willing to give out some ideas! Pazu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onza pro series guy Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 so I'm guessing you want to do static stuff rather than more flowing types of riding? I you want to ride street more like Danny Mac say, I would say look at a 24" bike, but if you want to be more technical and more like 'propper' trials you're looking at the right kind of bike. In trials the wheel size ie 20", 24", 26" doesnt necissarily have to correlate with your hieght. If you like a manouverable bike go 20". For more roll and to make big moves easier go 26". And for in between go 24". If you want to do fast, bunny hopping moves look at a street bike like an Inspired for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) Thanks pro guy I appreciate your insight. That is just what I wanted to hear that a bigger upper body doesn't necessarily require some or other specific geometry. Do you think that I would learn faster with a rim brake as compared to disc. Yes I want to practice rear wheel pogo at home to really own that then map out obstacles that I could hit one by one along a nice ride maybe with a little history to it. I like to do high frame rate camera stuff & 808 cam stuff so I should be able to make some fun garage vids like a lot of you on here do. I can see why you do it, it is way fun. I thought that it might be be self-encouraging to re-begin my approach to trials with a smaller, lighter bike than my mountain bike, you know which won't sap my energy so fast (maybe?). Yes Danny Mac, man I have always loved, absolutely loved the bicycle from rigging stuff up w/front ski as a poor country kid through road and mountain bikes, except that I never hit bmx as it happens. I saw Danny Mac's coming home video, he was connecting that bicycle with the iron core of the earth in a way that I had never imagined, it changed everything. Now I am finally in a position to explore this interest. So I thought that I would get a 20", mess around with that for a couple of months then get a 24" or a 26" and translate what I have learned at that point, to the larger form trials bikes. Never given nothing but I've worked really hard & now I can afford to get any bike out there, really. I see myself on a 24" or 26" soon. Wish I had known of this site before my money was in the register of this guy I'm buying one from but he seems solid. He said he would let me make changes to the bike specs if I wanted. I am on call for 2 wks every 6 and get called in all hours of the night to fix stuff - right in my obstacles playground. So I look forward to messing around some in the early hours of the morning after having fixed stuff. So this is the bike that I"m getting at this point - but with a 2012 frame. It is said to be approx. 9KG. I am willing to spend a little more money to improve my skills building if it is necessary. http://topgears.ecra...0-disc-edition# Edited July 15, 2012 by Pazu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogre Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 20"s are ace to learn on, they're so dedicated and dialed in for riding, the bike you're looking at appears to be excellent and ticks most of my boxes for what i'd buy personally, my only concern is that the bottom bracket is a square taper meaning that the axle that runs through it is square, and the cranks are also square, this is fine for road bikes and light mtb, but the nature of trials riding tends to give this interface a very hard time, the cranks can round off and i managed to snap a sqare taper BB within a matter of months when i first learnt to ride. the norm in trials is to use an isis bottom bracket as the star shaped interface is less prone to rounding the crank arms and it usually feels a bit stiffer, plus the burlier axle that isis uses is very confidence inducing. but in the short term square taper is fine, and it helps keep the price of a bike down. don't be put off by this comment, just be aware of the issue. learning to ride trials is not easy, it's hard than other disciplines and i found it tooks 3-4 years before i was riding at a standard that i was really proud of, the first few months are awkward, but if you want it, you'll stil enjoy it and me happy sticking at it, but remember it will take time, but it's totally worth it eventually... Trashzen is an excellent tutorial website, and will help you get to grips with the techniques you'll be looking to learn... they have published a book to so you might wanna consider treating yourself to that if you're dead sure this is the hobby you want. tartybikes have numerous tutorial videos that will teach you about the unique bits of hardware that we trials riders use... if you're debating the peripherals that can help with riding, a helmet is vital, it'll stop you killing yourself and it can give you a confidence boost to try new things, alot of riders wear gloves, but if you're prepared to have calousy man hands, then tough it out without gloves, use some climbing chalk and enjoy saving a small fortune on new gloves every few months... (the way you twist the bars in your hands means gloves get eaten very quickly compared to other cycling disciples where you stay on the bars at one angle all the time... try and find some local riders, you'll progress faster and get alot more out of riding with some encouragement and comradery... and sometimes seeing a move being done by another rider will remind you it's not impossible and help you give it a try... hope that helps.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onza pro series guy Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Yeah that sounds like a plan then, but maybe if you only want to mess around on a 20" for a while you could look at getting something cheeper, prehaps second hand, and then getting a more expensive 24"/26" bike? I would say running a disc on the front and a rim brake on the rear is best, but it's all personal preferance, plus so long as a brake works with good bite and hold you won't really need to worry about modulation e.c.t while your learning; any brake should do and it shouldn't hold you back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 So Awesome. Thanks Ogre I am encouraged. I emailed the guy requesting an ISIS bracket. Thank you for pointing that out. Understood that the square will still work, but clearly the best advantage will be with the ISIS bottom bracket and different crank arms to fit. I hope that they are lighter as well. I'm following you that trials riding isn't easy. I am in a good position to begin with some skills that will translate. Firstly, falling a lot, don't confront me. Helmet, yeah I do need another. I have a few bike helmets but my Bell Metropolis is more for road/MB. I mean to look over this site to find some good low profile helmet options. I also need elbow & knee protection but I might make that up myself. I have a solid track stand and I can ride down a trail without wheel rotation or foot plants if I want to - it's just that I feel terribly inefficient at it, like I'm ridiculously over-exerting to accomplish it, I lack finesse so there's definitely flaws with my technique on the bigger MB. I used to do trials-like MB riding but I always used toe clips and I would lift with my feet as well, which is not the right technique. I swapped out my toe clips for trials pedals last year but I haven't been able to progress much more. There are problems with my mountain bike though, like I cut down the bars to accommodate the trails that I was riding which had some really narrow gaps that I had to take at speed. A few times one of the bar ends caught a tree & put me into the ground so I cut them off; they are now 19" end to end. It has an old Answer Manitou Magnum fork that I converted to stiff from suspended; with the beatings that I've been putting it through, it's not going to last much longer. I'll check out Trashzen & Tartybikes today. I've had problems with grips loosening, they must be glued in place for trials riding? I know of one guy who is learning trials, and there's a skate park in a neighboring town that has some good BMX guys there on Wednesday so I'm going to stop in there and see if I can learn anything. I'm much older than most of the kids that frequent the skate park but my son tells me that on Weds. there are old men like me there. Thanks pro guy, I'm mulling over the possibility of changing the setup to a rim brake on the rear, I think that they are lighter? I've never had a brake system like either of these and look forward to the experience. I appreciate that you guys have taken the time to relate this good information! Pazu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogre Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) don't go for a light bike yet, it will take you a long time to appreciate a light trials bike, versus a trials bike.. beleive me anything sub 10kg will feel very light, and any savings after that are negligable, you want strong stuff that can take the nocks right now, and for the next few years. the bb5 disc brakes it comes with are excellent, a friend uses them front and rear on his bike and i couldn't fault them... a rear magura will offer some weight saving but for now stick with the standard stuff, discs are hassle free and despite everyone complaining that you'll hit them, you won't and if you do, you won't damage them... besides cable brakes are sick cause they're low cost, and mess free; split a hydraulic and you've got oil all over your braking surface... no need for elbow pads, i personally have never scuffed my arms in trials often or remarkably enough to warrent them, although shin guards or ankle support can be very useful, i recently broke my ankle and wish i was wearing some kind of ankle support to protect my ligaments and whatnot... but don't let that put you off... isis isn't lighter off the bat but it opens up the options for some of the lighter gear available... how is your fitness? also: don't get this one, it's got isis, but the freewheel is shit. you want a 60ep or even a 108 freewheel, any less will feel shit and won't be any good. if your wondering why i say this, the higher the engagement in a freewheel the more frequently you'll get pick-up through your drivetrain (if you think about riding a shit mtb in a low gear there is an 'idol' feel where the cranks are going round but you don't get any resistance... the high ep freewheels negate this more or less entirely, back in the day when i started our choice was limited, but now you can geta high performance one for a relatively low price, so make sure you do... Edited July 15, 2012 by ogre 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Good it seems I am on track. Trashzen's great, the text really draws you through the physics of the techniques. So the Echo 72 freewheel is in the okay range. That is a good mechanical point about the drivetrain. Well I'm stabile, but not conditioned for trials. Becoming more fit, is part of what this is about. It's okay if it takes me years to develop skills, I'm already doing some trials basics stuff in my driveway and wherever I ride, just not with great technique style or efficiency and I'm sure I'll be doing that sort of goofing around until if/when I drop. Trials, city trials riding is so ideal for me personally speaking, in so many ways. You can cover so much distance and learn so much, in a relatively small area. Expend every ounce of energy and fit in hours of riding, in a driveway. Myself I live on a dirt road on the shore of a lake. I don't have to go anywhere, it's all here. I can ride down the road goofing around on a trials bike with my 10yo son on his bike, he can keep up with me & I can still return home exhausted, or if he doesn't want to go for a ride, it doesn't have to spoil my ride any more. Roads here in rural NH, the back roads are still cool but on the main routes it's dangerous these days for any cyclists. I do cancer rides etc. but for the most part there are too many road-ragers out there. My point is that trials is the logical progression for me, and trials is part of my path to better conditioning as well. If you have suggestions as to what exercises might help with beginning trials conditioning, please let me know. I get the feeling that once I get past the things that I have learned wrong, I'll be able to achieve good results without so much strain and effort. I'm slightly overweight due to body fat but not due to health prob's or a gut full of crap, That will go soon enough once I have a smaller bike, I can then practice longer with more results and that energy will translate to losing that, and my abilities will progress further still. I have no ultimate goal, I am content just to continually improve. I'm going off-topic a bit for a sec but it speaks to the question of how trials and the better fitness and of course searing mental discipline and determination that it requires, will benefit me for one. I am also working on a traction device for another sport and it is demanding of balance. Drawings done, materials list and got some test wheels together, need to buy stock for rails at Home Depot, & then I'll have my first prototype together. In order to test this thing I need to be dialed in fit-wise and mentally. I have other skills like I have hang glided and I can roll my kayak, all self-taught. Not necessarily related to trials, but activities requiring a reasonable level of spacial awareness and fitness. But I have high hopes for this traction device. I got a "Turfboard" for $80 to fit this need, it's like a mountain board but it is too large, too heavy and awkward. Makes a nice small couch though. Weighs almost 40lbs. Thing I'm making should weigh 10 lbs. Thanks for the thoughts! Pazu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogre Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 if you want to ride at home, collect pallets, large boulders even tree's cut up and placed together. obviously it all boild down to what you can get away with/feasibly move but 2 or more pallets will initially give you everything you need to pick up the basics... don't worry about being overweight, i've always been a bit fatter than i'd like and it's seldom held me back, but being fit always helps, if you want to bring the gym into riding squats and deadlifts will develop the muscles that you'll use to power the bike upwards/across. but conditioning yourself as a whole is always the best way to go. worth mentioning while trials is good for your health, just riding will not make you that fit, the nature of riding is usually very passive, 5-10 minutes on the bike, then chilling out watching everyone else etc, unless you ride solid for long stints you'll not benefit massively from short periods of riding... have you thought about tools and maintenance yet? since your using cable brakes(presuming you buy the bike you suggested), you will need a quality set of cable cutters; thats in bold because those cheap ones you bought in a diy centre are not good enough and when you try to replace you're cable outers you'll end up making bad cuts and getting a spongey lever feel, i've got some £25 cutters and they are fantastic... if you move to hydraulic brakes, you will need to learn to bleed them (there are guides on youtube) you will definitely need to learn to true wheels, even though you use a disc brake, spoke tension and regular maintenance will ensure you wheels last longer, and if you move to a rim brake, the need for true rims will become apparent very quickly... a quality chain tool, something that looks fit for a motorcycle chain, not a cheap one... because trials puts alot of load through your chain, and you'll occasionally land on it etc, you will be changing them frequently and learning to join them right will save you a lot of hassle... quality allen keys, ideally with a ball end so you can work at wierd angles with them, and make sure you have a nice big 8mm as cranks require tightening regularly on a new bike, failure to do so will round your cranks, and then you will be sad... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) Yes I have all of those obstacles at home now, logs stones and a few pallets. I do 40 minutes on ACT elliptical almost every day, that's what I do to stay in shape primarily. It's always set up so I just get on it. I've been avoiding carbs altogether & putting my system into ketosis to burn fat. Difficult since I'm vegetarian but it's been working. I hadn't thought much about tools until you mentioned the ISIS crank, I see that I'll have to invest in some. I have most common bike tools already, having ridden road and mountain bike for many years. Never thought about needing cable cutters though, I'll look into it when I get the bike. I've built many wheels from cross 3 or 4 to radial I so should be okay there. I'm making note of all of this detail Ogre & I appreciate it! Now the guy I'm trying to get a bike from says that the extra $140 that I sent him to upgrade to the bike that I linked to above, is not enough. He made a mistake. Now he's saying I should go for this bike which he will throw in the ISIS crank stuff on. So I wonder Ogre if you might have some opinion as to whether I am being hosed on the bike below for $890, 571.11 in pounds. Will have ISIS crank/arms (140 of which is shipping)? The price is starting to creep up on my purchase and I wonder if I am losing the bargain. Looks like this one doesn't have a 2012 frame but I have an email in checking on that. Thanks for any advise! http://topgears.ecra...on-wing-20-2011 Edited July 15, 2012 by Pazu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogre Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 do you have any other options for buying a bike from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 I could have, if I got my funds credited back. I have not been able to find much for options in the US or that will ship to the US. At $750, that's 481 pounds, I think that's a lot of money but the bike is a lot of precision machine as well and he will throw in the isis crank. And he seems like a good guy. I saw some bikes on this forum site but then noticed a red banner that said these were no longer available. So I've got a little site navigation confusion going on there. And of those bikes, most said in country shipping only. I checked a few other sites, but they did not have any bikes obviously in stock, did not list weight which was important to me. There's one place in US that has bikes that are all over a grand. I haven't checked to see if they are in stock yet. Maybe I should be using Tartybikes? I seem to be hitting a time between models due out in August. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) I should clarify. The deal that I'm in is becoming convoluted. I bought and paid for a bike that was online in stock, they reported back that it wasn't & asked whether I could go for another bike or get credited back. So I thought to go for another bike, made another payment to cover additional cost of that, oniy to find that there had been a mistake; the additional cost should have been another $140 above what they had told me, but, I should instead take this other bike. So at this point in the deal, the actual "item" that I purchased, still hasn't been settled on. I will probably just go with this new bike suggestion. The guy was very accommodating in regard to the isis crank and that is a good quality in a vendor. The company has good feedback as well. I'm just new to it, didn't know quite what to be looking for or passing on in terms of dollars vs. value in a general sense. **UPDATE** I gave them another 108, going for the Neon Wing. Deal defined. So stoked to ride this new bike. With isis crank gear. Stoked Edited July 16, 2012 by Pazu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogre Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 awesome, post up some pics when it arives! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Yeah! Pics to follow. Thinking about that isis crank, that is going to make such a difference for me - thanks again Ogre for mentioning. I am looking forward to some high drops, I've always been able to jump down from very high positions without difficulty but the torque that my landing weight is going to put on a crankarm is going to be huge, that landing pressure is going to require a splined shaft for sure. One question from someone with no experience - can a skilled trials rider jump up further vertically with a bicycle, that he might jump vertically without one? In other words can a bicycle extend one's natural leaping ability? I haven't quite visualized that yet, but here at work I'm looking around campus at all of these tempting obstacles that I will one day attempt, wondering what is and isn't realistic. Of course my bar is set at zero now... There are lots of rivers and mountain streams in my area with megalithic granite formations and steep drops, if I ever get any good it will be killer to get video in those gorgeous natural places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake. Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Yes. They can jump higher with a bike. Apparently Benito Ros can sidehop 65"? Not sure anyone could static hop that without a bike. Check out 'Damon Watson' on YouTube, he's pretty beast. Also top riders seem to 'tap' and 'hook' stuff that seems to be above 6 foot high... And Damon can static gap 11-13 feet on his bike... With a bike you get the aid of tyres to help with bounce when jumping which can help a little, the 'kick' in the drive chain can spring you forward more that bare leg muscle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 THanks JMCD, Damon is great. That's "Big Bunny" Ros right, heard of him at least. I'm beginning to visualize that drive chain kick, definitely still don't have my mind around it, I have never used the technique. It is so fun to be green to this & to be putting together an idea as to how these incredible feats of maneuvering are achieved. So there is no freewheel on the back wheel, the freewheel is on the bottom bracket, right? How does this difference from the rear cog freewheeling, surface as an advantage to the trials rider? Does this mean that the chain is always in motion when the rear wheel is rolling? I live in a rural, back-woods area and there are no trials bikes available in shops around me, so I haven't even seen one in person. I am older, so, much as I don't want to accept it, my age will likely be a limiting factor in what I'll be able to accomplish ... But so what! I just want to get out there and have fun. One of my boys was working on his thrown together bmx bike, I tried it out and it was good. I could track stand one handed on it indefinitely, without brakes... So I feel I have a fighting chance at getting a lot of fun out of this bike! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) This is a link to a video of 2 minutes of my mountain bike. I practice balance and do what trials-like stuff that I can do, on it. I don't know if the link will work. It's not riding, it's just the bike. https://vimeo.com/45866378 Edited July 16, 2012 by Pazu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCottTrials Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 My personal thoughts are, buy the size of bike which you want to end up on. Each size has its own unique style of riding and feel, not to say that you can't ride a 20" like a 24"! I'm also 5"7 and started on a 26", rode that for about 3 years and got to a fairly decent standard then got a 20" and really vastly improved. I have to say riding 20" for me personally is so much more enjoyable than 26" and I would recommend it to anyone. The manoeuvrability and flexibility of them is just too much of an advantage in my eyes. I will say though I've never tried a 24" and wouldn't mind giving it a try, although I doubt I'd ever switch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Thanks for your thoughts Michael it is encouraging to hear. Enjoyable time exercising and practicing skills, is exactly what I'm looking for, it looks like the 20" provides more room to move around and I like that. I can do some things on my 26" but with so many technical blind spots at this point, the 20" should help to sort that out. The smaller bike will be easier to transport. And, it's less far to fall, to be honest. Maybe it will be a little less unnerving to lean way back to where I need to be, on the smaller bike. I'm really looking forward to trying something new. Watching the Trashzen videos & particularly some of the text descriptions is great and with a new bike to start with I won't be tempted back into poor habits like accelerating through everything. It is looking like wrist and forearm strength is pretty important in getting the bike up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogre Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 with regards to the bike enhancing your abilities, yes it can and will with very good technique... the chainstay provides extra leverage and your whole upper body will work to move it this way, it's like having an extra section in your leg... front freewheel is wierd at first, when rolling along your chain will always move... and you can rotate your cranks backward and the chain is stationary, it's novel for a while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Woh talk about the analogy worth a thousand words, Like having an extra section in your leg. Instructionally put! I can see that now. So, the freewheel front, I'm just not visualizing where that comes into play. Maybe in conjunction with braking, to torque against the brake? I can't wait to try it and find out what it is like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogre Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 it is no different to any other bikes drivetrain, you'll just feel the engagement more or less immediately compared to cheaper set-ups. the advantage from it being up front is that it brings the weight to the centre of the bike, a wheel with a freehub is heavier than a fixed wheel, since the hub is more complex... making the bike a bit more manageable. you really need to ride a bad trials bike to appreciate a good one haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I see what you are saying about weight. It's all about avoiding these pitfalls Ogre thanks for your advise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pazu Posted July 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) The Neon Wing from TOPGEARS has arrived; it's home for the first time, from China, via US Postal Service. Here's a 240FPS capture of it. I want to do a run-down on the components, not sure where to post that, maybe just here. The only issue was that the fork was shipped loose on the frame, in the head or steerer tube, so the bearing retainers were flopping around on the fork tube. Turns out, a single bearing was missing. I did not notice this at first, so my first drive "to town" and back for grease, was immediately followed up with another run "to town" to get a single bearing. 90 miles of driving, for grease and a single bearing. The guy at the bike shop (Omer & Bob's) set me up with more bearings so that I could dispense with the retainers and go with all bearings - he said it would be stronger - but for now since the bike is on warranty I've just filled in the missing position in the retainer and built it up. I got on the bike briefly, wonder if I have the bars turned too far forward. They are about 2X as wide as my Mbike bars. Having the crank above the wheelbase, has caused me to quietly lower my current skill grade by 1 notch. Then again I've been on the bike for > 1 minute so far. After a few hours, I should have that change accommodated. The frame feels light and stiff. I like it! It's like my Yamaha Trailways 250, with the fat back tire. Can hardly believe it - I am finally rolling on my new trials bike, Yeah! Update - a few minutes further in, I squeezed the rear brake. The band of metal that clamps the brake lever assembly to the handlebar, snapped at the top. TOPGEARS is sending a replacement. Rear brake out of commission. Well it works, but it also spins around on the handlebar. [media=]https://vimeo.com/46511819 Edited July 28, 2012 by Pazu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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