interesting, thanx to matt for this it seems despite All the testing, theses pads work much better on harder rims, such as mavic, Alex and sunn If you use something like an echo (i know it wasnt good on these) or a Onza, then the performance suffers (due to reading this topic) As of.......Now, there is a little notice telling you that 'for optimum braking, use on a harder grade aluminium rim such as....' Sorry for people who think that they arent very good, we have spent months testing these pads but havent changed compound during retail A new pad is in testing, for sale soon (designed for the more, common, cheaper rims) Mike