Mike Poyzer @ Onza Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Just a few observations on this thread and any other "warranty " threads. Tensile cranks have built a superb reputation throughout the world now and broken cranks are relatively few and far between given the thousands we have sold. I would certainly dispute that their breakage rates are any greater than Middleburns given their lower numbers sold, and having sold Middleburns ourselves their breakages are by no means unheard of.(several threads have been on here about Middleburns breakages). We have adopted a very liberal policy with warranty replacements and I am sure there will be no users who have a complaint in that direction. This is not really my point however. The main reason for this posting is that returns on trials components are by no means straightforward. 99% of returned broken parts in the trials community would not stand up to scrutiny by trading standards etc. I show pictures of the two broken cranks which are the subject of this thread to illustrate my point. The first crank has been battered unmercifully and even looks to have a small piece ground out. The second crank supposedly used for a shorter time is far older and is in even worse condition with the same small piece ground out. My point is that whatever we replace either FOC or half price is done entirely out of goodwill to maintain our products reputation. Items produced in this condition to the Office of Fair Trading would be completely laughed out and deep down all riders really know this. I would therefore urge any person with a problem like this to contact us first before making such postings on here. These threads are generally started without the full facts being shown and usually only have the effect of drawing out our detractors to have a go. (Good to see in this case that there were some positive postings) This sort of action will only have the effect of making us a little wary about the returned products and certainly will not help your case to get a replacement. These forums are a great medium to promote debate on these and other items, but please give us a chance to sort your problem before sounding off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIX Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 (edited) How long have tensiles been available to buy?? How long have Middleburns been available to buy?? How can you possibly state that you have sold more tensile cranks than middleburn have sold RS7's?? It would seem to me that you cant. In fact I would say that due to rs7's having been out far far longer than the tensiles that it would be the complete oposite, and if you compared a truthfull breakage ratio Im sure the middleburns would win. If you thought that the tensiles where better than the middleburns then why have you changed and updated the design, where as middleburn rs7's have remained unchanged for many years?? I appritiate and admire that you are still pushing the design and making it better because that is the best way to improve parts. Just pointing out that the only developement middleburn have had to make is a different bashring. EDIT: Also my middleburns look like those pics you have there and have done for about 4 years and I think most people do. Edited August 31, 2005 by JIX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Urgh, I don't think he was saying that more Tensiles have been sold than Middleburns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIX Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Argh, are relatively few and far between given the thousands we have sold. I would certainly dispute that their breakage rates are any greater than Middleburns given their lower numbers sold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave85 Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 tensiles, to my knowledge, have been out 2 years. It was their first design, and for a first design it was bloody good. middleburn have been making cranks for 15 years, the RS7's have been around for about 5. Theyve had time to get the design right, and particularly in the earlier days far fewer people jumped and shouted about them breaking. my burns are 2 years old, they still look fine, the tensiles in that pic have been abused in a fashion that would have killed a set of middleburns too. tensiles are cheaper and more versatile than burns, backed up just as well, and will withstand rough treatment far better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Poyzer @ Onza Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 I do not say that we have sold more cranks than Middleburns since the middle ages. I am sayin that since we introduced Tensiles we sell more than Middleburns on a year to year basis. We sell Tensiles directly from our Taiwan operation to 19 countries throughout the world as well as the UK market. They are also fitted as original equipment on four Onza bikes in the range and have always been very trials specific, being used by many top ranked riders worldwide. I do not have evidence about the sales rates of Middleburns and I make no comment about their quality which I know is excellent. My assertions are based on instinct and market penetration. As for developing our products, we run a team and keep a very close watch on the way all our products perform and we have an ongoing brief to constantly improve our products wherever possible. Your suggestion that Middleburns do not have this same ethos would I am sure be rejected by them. I have watched Middleburns cranks develop over the years and many changes have been made in that time, some major and some minor. I reiterate that my posting was not really about the merits of Middleburns or Tensiles which both have good reputations, but was about posting on here as a knee jerk reaction when you have a problem before trying to sort it out with the supplier first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukeee Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 tensiles, to my knowledge, have been out 2 years. It was their first design, and for a first design it was bloody good. middleburn have been making cranks for 15 years, the RS7's have been around for about 5. Theyve had time to get the design right, and particularly in the earlier days far fewer people jumped and shouted about them breaking. my burns are 2 years old, they still look fine, the tensiles in that pic have been abused in a fashion that would have killed a set of middleburns too. tensiles are cheaper and more versatile than burns, backed up just as well, and will withstand rough treatment far better. ← Its all well and good you saying that , but you seem connected to Onza/Tensile/Zona etc. etc. I really don't see Onza/Super Cycles can say they have sold more Tensiles than Middleburn have RS7's.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR28 Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Its all well and good you saying that , but you seem connected to Onza/Tensile/Zona etc. etc. ← Thats not the case Luke, Edd's just someone with an excellent engineering knowledge, who also has a background in many areas of cycling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BikeDotStuffAtOnzaDotCom Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 (edited) Its all well and good you saying that , but you seem connected to Onza/Tensile/Zona etc. etc. Huh? What did you base that on? Quick Spec Leeson clear660, pashley forks, Middleburns, maguras, hope monos, echo bar+stem Edited August 31, 2005 by BikeDotStuffAtOnzaDotCom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Poyzer @ Onza Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 What Adam says is 100% true. I don't know Mr Potts ( I don't think) and he certainly has nothing to do with our organisation, although his point was well made and in line with our thinking. I repeat , I do not say that we have sold more Tensiles than Middleburn RS7's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIX Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Absoulutly fair enough Mike. I just wanted to ask some questions, and thank you for answering. I really do like the fact that you are improving the products and I think that any company that sits on their achivement rather than to keep making them will fall behind very quickly. I dont want to give the impression that middleburn dont improve their designs, merely that they havent really needed to. For ff I dont think anyone can look any further than the tensiles, but otherwise I would go Middleburn eveytime. Life time warranty on them which includes everything is something you cant really sneeze at. Plus when I knackered my fist set up by riding them loose, they gave me a new set for 1/2 price. I dont know what onza would do in the same situation but I thought that was a very nice gesture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Harrison Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Jeez, when I started riding I had to make do with Deore or FSA cranks, and if you broke them you hadn't a hope in hell of getting a replacement. There will always be failures, you can't make something absolutely bomb proof without making it stupidly heavy. Plenty of people are satisfied with Tensiles, and their replacement scheme seems more than fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Poyzer @ Onza Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 We do not have a rigid official replacement policy on Tensile and we don't really want to introduce one. Returns have been minimal and this has allowed us to be very liberal in our response. I think I can say that virtually every broken crank we have had has been somewhat close to the above photographs in its degree of abuse and yet they have virtually all been replaced f.o.c. if less than one year old. As Planet X found some years ago, once you give a no questions asked warranty then people abuse it to get regular free replacements. We do not want to go down the road of an official returns policy but if we cannot keep it all very low key, then an official policy will have to be laid down and customers will be the losers. I don't believe that Middleburns with their life time guarantee would replace cranks returned in the same condition as those above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukeee Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Huh? What did you base that on? ← What Adam says is 100% true. I don't know Mr Potts ( I don't think) and he certainly has nothing to do with our organisation, although his point was well made and in line with our thinking. I repeat , I do not say that we have sold more Tensiles than Middleburn RS7's. ← Observation over time?! Some of the trials riders from loughbrough seem to know a bit more about onza than your average trials rider... Was it dave who started the Zona Zip Topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScotchDave Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Life time warranty on them which includes everything is something you cant really sneeze at. Plus when I knackered my fist set up by riding them loose, they gave me a new set for 1/2 price. I dont know what onza would do in the same situation but I thought that was a very nice gesture. ← If they didn't replace it you'd still have crash replacement, which is half price. :P" Luke, I guarantee you Edd has no contacts in onza, he's just a very good engineer. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Observation over time?! Some of the trials riders from loughbrough seem to know a bit more about onza than your average trials rider... Was it dave who started the Zona Zip Topic? ← L'boro is not far from Nottingham, home of SuperCycles. Maybe they've been there? Ad rides/rode and lives/lived in L'boro. He also had a lot to do with SuperCycles in the past. Maybe he's spoken to other L'boro riders at some point? Maybe therefore they'd "know a bit more about Onza than your average trials rider"? Meh, anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantham Posted August 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 :"> I was not slating Tensiles in this topic Mike, was just supprised when 2 went in quick succesion as ive ran them for a long time and never had a problem. If they snapped left right and centre it wouldnt be a shock to me, but they are damn good cranks. Ill certainly be using the replacement ones if i get them, and would still recomend them as the best trials cranks on the market. Yer edd is a mint engineer and a top bloke as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Poyzer @ Onza Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 My point is that the first posting was probably thrown on in haste and was economical with the facts. Many readers did indeed assume that you broke one crank, which was almost new and immediately replaced it with another which again broke after only a few minutes usage. The truth was that your first crank was battered to death and was then replaced with a much older and even more battered version of the same crank which then also broke. By all means post on here if you are unhappy with either a product or your treatment by a supplier but please let us have a considered view which presents your problem in a truthful light preferably with pictorial evidence. Misleading postings will definitely be prejudicial to your proposed "warranty" claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantham Posted September 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2005 (edited) sorry mate, Should have posted in more detail, and with pictures which I had on my camera but still haven't had time to get them off. Mike is right though, the second crank that i put on was an older crank. The first crank has been battered unmercifully and even looks to have a small piece ground out Just to say that i have not been near these cranks with a grinder :) Edited September 2, 2005 by grantham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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