rugbyman Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Don't worry about it though, probably easier to avoid answering difficult questions? Or have I "hit a nerve" Bye don't give up mark i'm enjoying this one.....well deep and going DOWN he he Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 By changing the circumstances, God does take away what "free will" we think we have? If he's altering it so it's not as it was, he is interfering in the world, which it says he won't do (apart from when he massacred a shitload of people for not believing in him. Jealous God? Oh noes). No, you haven't struck a nerve. None of your arguements have really "upset" me in any way, shape, or form. The only mild annoyance I found was you not replying to any of the main points of any of my posts, instead choosing other joking ones to reply to, e.g. Charel's.Don't worry about it though, probably easier to avoid answering difficult questions? Or have I "hit a nerve" there Bye EDIT: Oh yeah, the rest of the points I was making about you contradicting yourself were also in the other posts I made you didn't reply to Mark, God does change circumstances but this is after a sincere request,if we request it then that is our choice! I have never herd of anyone being healed with out a request! In fact, i believe that there are a lot of things God would love to do for us but he won't because we just don't ask him !Exactly what are you referring to with regards to your "massacred for not believing" statement??I'm not going to spend the rest of my time apologizing to you for "not replying to main points of any of your posts" i've done my best,if i missed something in the reply to you from Saturday then lets go through it!No definitely no nerves hit here,you see Mark,God and christianity are a part of me,nobody forced God on to me,i accepted him with my own free will,i Love talking about God,why else would i be on a bike forum talking about little else?? Your arguments/questions challenge me and make me stronger in the process so if this topic has to go to 100 pages i'll still be here with my point of view,so like i said before,if i've missed something that you need me to clarify then ask again,it won't hurt you to do that!!Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Wasn't it the whole Noah's ark shit or something that was God thinking everyone wasn't believing in him enough for Hmm, probably best off making sense...I'm well tired here, so I can't really think straight, but I know there was one point where according to the bible God thought there was too much heresy and sinning and "punished" everyone. My brain's telling me that was the whole Noah's Ark shenanigans, but I'm doubting myself there...Equally, I thought it was one of the main foundations of Christianity that God DIDN'T help people/change circumstances? Otherwise why would he let good people suffer? People put that down to a test of faith, such as the Holocaust. In the Holocaust, people were killed in their thousands, yet you're saying God helped your friend who fell over/off a bike/off a board/whatever it was? Doesn't really make sense. That's a shakey arguement, but like I said, I'm not thinking straight and I can't compose my arguement too well about how completely bollocks the idea of God healing people/helping people/altering the world is, when that WOULD be imposing on our free will (I don't mean in terms of us asking for it, I mean the ramifications of him doing so), which he's not supposed to do.If you know he helps people when they pray, how do you know that he isn't altering stuff all the time, incidentally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Wasn't it the whole Noah's ark shit or something that was God thinking everyone wasn't believing in him enough for Hmm, probably best off making sense...I'm well tired here, so I can't really think straight, but I know there was one point where according to the bible God thought there was too much heresy and sinning and "punished" everyone. My brain's telling me that was the whole Noah's Ark shenanigans, but I'm doubting myself there...Equally, I thought it was one of the main foundations of Christianity that God DIDN'T help people/change circumstances? Otherwise why would he let good people suffer? People put that down to a test of faith, such as the Holocaust. In the Holocaust, people were killed in their thousands, yet you're saying God helped your friend who fell over/off a bike/off a board/whatever it was? Doesn't really make sense. That's a shakey arguement, but like I said, I'm not thinking straight and I can't compose my arguement too well about how completely bollocks the idea of God healing people/helping people/altering the world is, when that WOULD be imposing on our free will (I don't mean in terms of us asking for it, I mean the ramifications of him doing so), which he's not supposed to do.If you know he helps people when they pray, how do you know that he isn't altering stuff all the time, incidentally?Ok Mark there were a few incdents where God did punish people but to comment i would have to know which incident you are referring to so my hands are tied on this one needless to say that when he did punish anyone he had a good reason but to give you a specific answer i would need to know exactly what you are referring to!Right,i don't know about it being one of the main foundations,but i think you are refereeing to the fact that when for example a christian goes through a trial or something bad we feel that we are being tested or strengthened.I personally believe this and i'm not alone,i prefer to see it as being guided,if i go through something bad,i always try to see the positive side of it,and God does change circumstances,espically when it proves himself to people.Lazarus was dead and stinking,but God raised him from the dead,and i'm not expecting you to believe this but as i believe in the bible i will use examples from it and this is one of them! You ask why God lets good people suffer,well i don't think that he does,just as there is a God there is also a Devil who rules over the earth until Jesus returns and he is responsible for much of the evil that has taken place on earth! I don't know what part God had in the Holocaust if any,i would have to find out more about it from a biblical point of view so i can't answer on that at the moment and the friend who fell off a bike or board wasn't written by me so can't comment on that either!Mark,to try and sort out this free will thing,if i've got it right,you think that when God heals or helps people this alters the world which imposes our free will?? but if we don't ask for healing or help we don't get it so how is this altering the world.God doesn't say "Man must follow me!!" but when man does follow God there are guidelines and these guidelines are there so that man doesn't miss out on what God has for him whilst living a christian life! When Man chooses to do things his way,when difficulties come about,God is powerless to help because man has taken God(his help) out of the equation!I know God helps us when we pray,and God IS altering situations and circumstances all the time,because there is always someone praying!!Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Mark,You also talk about free will as if we(men) created it for ourselvs,when God created man,God gave man dominion over the earth and all that was in the earth,man was also created with free will,the right to chose weather we serve God or not!!God is also the creator which means he dosen't answer to us!Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Ok Mark there were a few incdents where God did punish people but to comment i would have to know which incident you are referring to so my hands are tied on this one needless to say that when he did punish anyone he had a good reason but to give you a specific answer i would need to know exactly what you are referring to!Right,i don't know about it being one of the main foundations,but i think you are refereeing to the fact that when for example a christian goes through a trial or something bad we feel that we are being tested or strengthened.I personally believe this and i'm not alone,i prefer to see it as being guided,if i go through something bad,i always try to see the positive side of it,and God does change circumstances,espically when it proves himself to people.Lazarus was dead and stinking,but God raised him from the dead,and i'm not expecting you to believe this but as i believe in the bible i will use examples from it and this is one of them! That wasn't what I was refering to. I meant that us having free will seemed to be an important point of Christianity, as if we had free will it meant that we had the choice to be good or bad (Which, if we have the free-will to do that, but God punishes those who are bad, it seems a bit odd?). The bit about suffering wasn't about being one of the foundations of Christianity...You were right about me not giving a shit about whoever Lazarus was. That's a story from 2000 years ago that we only have one version of events of, which is from your book. Is it surprising I don't believe that? Either way, we can bring back people who have died using defibrilators and so on now, so are we effectively being God in that sense? That wasn't a serious point, btw You ask why God lets good people suffer,well i don't think that he does,just as there is a God there is also a Devil who rules over the earth until Jesus returns and he is responsible for much of the evil that has taken place on earth! I don't know what part God had in the Holocaust if any,i would have to find out more about it from a biblical point of view so i can't answer on that at the moment and the friend who fell off a bike or board wasn't written by me so can't comment on that either! But if God is all powerful, and he created the Devil (who was Lucifer, a fallen angel who was made by God, according to the Bible?), then surely he can't be omniscient if he let that slip through the net? It's a pretty big mistake to make, y'know, creating your own arch-enemy yourself? Either way, he still lets this other being take over the world? Seems a bit odd. Mark,to try and sort out this free will thing,if i've got it right,you think that when God heals or helps people this alters the world which imposes our free will?? but if we don't ask for healing or help we don't get it so how is this altering the world.God doesn't say "Man must follow me!!" but when man does follow God there are guidelines and these guidelines are there so that man doesn't miss out on what God has for him whilst living a christian life! When Man chooses to do things his way,when difficulties come about,God is powerless to help because man has taken God(his help) out of the equation! I wasn't refering to free will as the choice to follow God or not, I just meant in terms of our daily life. If God is altering things, we are limited as to what our options are by however he alters things, which means that we don't have the free choice we had before he meddled with things, therefore losing us our free will, which also again supports the arguement about God being perfect, yet creating the Devil/letting us sin (although he killed nearly everyone in the world for that before, when there were fewer sinners around than there are now. We're about due for some kind of huge genocide now? Nothing quite like a God who rules by fear )... Anyway, my point wasn't about free-will being the choice to follow God or not, if that's what you thought I was implying.How can man take God out of the equation anyway? If God is all powerful and doesn't give us the option, how can that be You're suggesting by saying that that God is weaker than man? I know God helps us when we pray,and God IS altering situations and circumstances all the time,because there is always someone praying!!Mike. Again, how do you know this? It even says in the bible that God doesn't meddle with the way of men, but you're saying he does, all the time? Again, this makes no sense if he's altering the world, but still leaves us as sinners, then hugely punishes us for it? Mark,You also talk about free will as if we(men) created it for ourselvs,when God created man,God gave man dominion over the earth and all that was in the earth,man was also created with free will,the right to chose weather we serve God or not!!God is also the creator which means he dosen't answer to us!Mike. If he gave us free will and can alter the world as he pleases, why did God let it get to a state of affairs where he had to kill people to make it right? For an all-loving, all-forgiving, perfect God, why did he feel moved enough to kill? It makes no sense It's a total contradiction of his character if he commits genocide, but if you're OK with that it's your religion I suppose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Mark,You also talk about free will as if we(men) created it for ourselvs,when God created man,God gave man dominion over the earth and all that was in the earth,man was also created with free will,the right to chose weather we serve God or not!!God is also the creator which means he dosen't answer to us!Mike. For the sake of arguement, I'm Muslim. Allah says "whatever" to your statement about God creating the world. To me, Jesus was just a misguided prophet. What makes your religion right? This is one of the questions I asked previously that you didn't answer...So,i was truly saved,i stopped all casual relationships,smoking,drinking to get drunk(still have a beer or a brandy at the weekend!!Lol) and took off all my jewelry apart from a bracelet which my mother had given me for my 21st.I told god that i'd just keep wearing this one,it was really nice and even had a safety clasp on it so it wouldn't drop off my wrist if it came unfastened.Then without warning, it just fell off in the shower,just like that!! I looked up and just said YES LORD!! and never put it on again! All that free will, but not allowed to wear jewellery? Might wanna tell that to the Pope I guess, and most Catholics. They seem to dig the fancy bling stuff in their churches/uniforms?Meh, I'm just being pedantic now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat hudson Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 funny but true hahaha. i dont think many young people are going to go in for religion after they see how many wars it starts and rifts come of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb88 Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Just wondering, does the bible agree with theories of the big bang and the expansion of the universe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Bleech Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Just wondering, does the bible agree with theories of the big bang and the expansion of the universe?on a similar note, do you think science could have been used to proof god exists or to back up bible 'theories'e.g. big bang - loud noises, loads of light which is similar to and god said 'let there be light'what if Mr.X is the kindest,nicest, most thoughtful man in the world, always helping people, doing charity work, etc,etc but has no faith in god? do you think he will go to heaven?if a rich man put a camel in the blender and uses a really fine jet spray and sprays it through an eye of needle, will he go into heaven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Papasnap Maher Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 I aint gonna read all that....but jeez, you peopledont you have better things to do that argue about if theres a god or not lol.Im catholic....do i believe in god, f**k knows i believe when i want to believe, the other time, no i think its aload of bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spangler Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 If i was given £100,000 i would put up with rappers and skaters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 That wasn't what I was refering to. I meant that us having free will seemed to be an important point of Christianity, as if we had free will it meant that we had the choice to be good or bad (Which, if we have the free-will to do that, but God punishes those who are bad, it seems a bit odd?). The bit about suffering wasn't about being one of the foundations of Christianity...You were right about me not giving a shit about whoever Lazarus was. That's a story from 2000 years ago that we only have one version of events of, which is from your book. Is it surprising I don't believe that? Either way, we can bring back people who have died using defibrilators and so on now, so are we effectively being God in that sense? That wasn't a serious point, btw But if God is all powerful, and he created the Devil (who was Lucifer, a fallen angel who was made by God, according to the Bible?), then surely he can't be omniscient if he let that slip through the net? It's a pretty big mistake to make, y'know, creating your own arch-enemy yourself? Either way, he still lets this other being take over the world? Seems a bit odd. I wasn't refering to free will as the choice to follow God or not, I just meant in terms of our daily life. If God is altering things, we are limited as to what our options are by however he alters things, which means that we don't have the free choice we had before he meddled with things, therefore losing us our free will, which also again supports the arguement about God being perfect, yet creating the Devil/letting us sin (although he killed nearly everyone in the world for that before, when there were fewer sinners around than there are now. We're about due for some kind of huge genocide now? Nothing quite like a God who rules by fear )... Anyway, my point wasn't about free-will being the choice to follow God or not, if that's what you thought I was implying.How can man take God out of the equation anyway? If God is all powerful and doesn't give us the option, how can that be You're suggesting by saying that that God is weaker than man? Again, how do you know this? It even says in the bible that God doesn't meddle with the way of men, but you're saying he does, all the time? Again, this makes no sense if he's altering the world, but still leaves us as sinners, then hugely punishes us for it? If he gave us free will and can alter the world as he pleases, why did God let it get to a state of affairs where he had to kill people to make it right? For an all-loving, all-forgiving, perfect God, why did he feel moved enough to kill? It makes no sense It's a total contradiction of his character if he commits genocide, but if you're OK with that it's your religion I suppose Mark,i'll try to answer all of your points!Ok,God is simply doing what any parent who loves their child would do! The fact that a child has free will doesn't stop them from being naughty and punished for doing wrong!!Yes we can bring back people who have just died with the use of ,defibrilators but not after three days,or any length of time where the body has started to decompose,and NO we are not being God in this sense as i feel that even the invention of equipment like the defibrilators has been attained by the knowledg,wisdom and understanding that God has bledssed the minds of medical science with.In the book of Daniel it talks about there being an increase of knowledg in the times to come,i believe that those times are here.God is most definitely omniscient ,Yes God created lucifer as the chief angel over music,but like i've said before about man,angels were created with free will.Lucifer wanted more,it was greed that caused him to fall along with all his followers down to hell. There seems to be a lot of confusion in what your trying to say here,and i'm not really understanding what your saying in this next part " I wasn't referring to free will as the choice to follow God or not, I just meant in terms of our daily life. If God is altering things, we are limited as to what our options are by however he alters things, which means that we don't have the free choice we had before he meddled with things, therefore losing us our free will, which also again supports the argument about God being perfec" A little clarity is needed here!Man takes God out of the equation in the same way a disobedient child refuses to do what has been set out by his parents,doesn't stop the parents from being in charge though and definitely doesn't make them any weaker than the child either!The reason that i can say that God helps us when we pray is because i have a personal relationship with God and my belief in him,he helps me when i pray so why wouldn't he help others.Mark this personal relationship that i mentioned can only come when your totally committed to believing in God,you don't believe in God or the bible,you even LOOSELY quote scriptures from the bible without researching the actual scripture,you both speak and take things out of context to suit your arguments.Instead of arguing half thought out points why don't you ask direct questions to which you might get direct answers,i feel you have a lot on your mind which comes out in the confusion of some of your questions,i could be wrong though!Ofcourse God is altering things all the time,he wouldn't be able to answer the requests of those in need with out changing things,but this is us requesting things to be changed,God doesn't just alter things for the sake of it.Remember sin is our choice,God has put provision in place for us to be forgiven for our sins by Christ dying on the cross for us,he want's us to turn from sin but again this is our choice.This goes back to the Parent child scenario again,do all parents have there children so that they can do bad things,i think not,but if the child does wrong then that child must be punished,especially after being told over and over again not to do a certian thing I still don't know which part of the bible your talking about when you mention God having let things get to a state of affairs he had to kill people to make it right! Tell me which bible story your commenting on and i'll answer your question here! A small example of how God is with his children can be found in the book of Judges in the bible,the Iseralites were being ruled by a king appointed by God,then they would do wrong in the eyes of God so he would cause a ruler to put them in to slavery and ill treat them.then the Iseralites would remember the God that they serve and cry out to him for deliverance,and this would move Gods hart so he would allow them to be delivered from the slavery and ill treatment,and they would be thankful but only for a while.Soon after being delivered they forgot about god and started to worship other evil gods and sin in the eyes of God and the whole process would start again This went on for a LONG time If you want to know how long then read Judges The point here is that the Isralites never lost their right of choice to go back and sin again,when they sinned they were punished,when they cried out to God they were delivered,but don't confuse the fact that they didn't just stop believing in God they sinned against God and thats why they were punished! God didn't commit genocide,i don't know what killing your talking about exactly but i do know this,a lot of the killing by God was done in the old testament,this was a time with out any rules,Right up to the time of Leviticus people were still killing one another for the simplest of things.Satan(as he was now called after his fall) was ruling the harts of men so a great deal of killing was taking place.You cant just say God was killing people LOOSELY like that as different situations in the bible each have their different explanations,tell me what your referring to and i'll do my best to explain if your interested!mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 For the sake of arguement, I'm Muslim. Allah says "whatever" to your statement about God creating the world. To me, Jesus was just a misguided prophet. What makes your religion right? This is one of the questions I asked previously that you didn't answer... All that free will, but not allowed to wear jewellery? Might wanna tell that to the Pope I guess, and most Catholics. They seem to dig the fancy bling stuff in their churches/uniforms?Meh, I'm just being pedantic now...I never once said my religion was right Mark! I respect the Muslims as belivers,i just dent share their beliefs simple.Christianity is right for me(Mike) i'm committed to it totally,i believe in God the father,God the son and God the Holy spirit,I believe in the bible and I both believe in and speak in tongues when the Holy spirit bids it and i'll share my christian views with anyone who will listen ,no matter whatb their background!You misunderstood the jewelry statement so let me explain.I have a personal relationship with Christ and before i became a christian,i had a LOVE for jewelry,i mean a real love for the stuff,it was unhealthy,i chose to take it off to show God how serious and committed i was to him. Christians do wear jewelry but it's not the love of their lives(like a form of idol worship) but for me it was!Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Right, I don't have the book I got all the info from with me. I've been waiting to have it back for some time. When I get it, I'll "research" the matter more so I can point out what I mean if that's any better "God didn't commit genocide,i don't know what killing your talking about exactly but i do know this,a lot of the killing by God was done in the old testament,this was a time with out any rules"Why does there not being any 'rules' mean anything? If God is perfect and all-loving blah blah blah, why would 'rules' matter? He still killed? On a mass scale (e.g. genocide, especially seeing as each time it was because it was believed God was just?)? Doesn't sound like the sort of father figure I'd want "A small example of how God is with his children can be found in the book of Judges in the bible,the Iseralites were being ruled by a king appointed by God,then they would do wrong in the eyes of God so he would cause a ruler to put them in to slavery and ill treat them.then the Iseralites would remember the God that they serve and cry out to him for deliverance,and this would move Gods hart so he would allow them to be delivered from the slavery and ill treatment,and they would be thankful but only for a while.Soon after being delivered they forgot about god and started to worship other evil gods and sin in the eyes of God and the whole process would start again This went on for a LONG time If you want to know how long then read Judges The point here is that the Isralites never lost their right of choice to go back and sin again,when they sinned they were punished,when they cried out to God they were delivered,but don't confuse the fact that they didn't just stop believing in God they sinned against God and thats why they were punished! "Again, the whole arguement that he lets them do wrong and harms them seems a bit odd? You keep refering to God as a father and us as his children, yet no parents claims to be a perfect, omniscient being that can alter the fabric of the world? Slight difference there, which takes it into a completely different context? Parents aren't trying to get their kids into their own happy, joyful afterlife, in spite of the fact that the parent (if it's true to the God/human context) created them and their environment in such a way that it made it natural for them to sin?Just noticed this:"I still don't know which part of the bible your talking about when you mention God having let things get to a state of affairs he had to kill people to make it right! Tell me which bible story your commenting on and i'll answer your question here!"The story you even mentioned yourself suggests that people lead a terrible life of slavery, which God forced them into? That wasn't what I was refering to, but most of the stories (similarly to the one you put up) in which God kills are because people are doing what God wants? Isn't that a bit selfish? I mean, I know you're going to say "Yes, but he gave us the world", but if he's perfect, all-loving, benevolent, etc., why does he get so moved by people not worshipping him? Seems a bit odd to create people and then make them do what you want, then when they don't you make their life Hell (even literally? )? There are character flaws like this in God that no-one seems to explain adequately?"Ofcourse God is altering things all the time,he wouldn't be able to answer the requests of those in need with out changing things,but this is us requesting things to be changed,God doesn't just alter things for the sake of it."And you criticised ME for being vague? "Remember sin is our choice,God has put provision in place for us to be forgiven for our sins by Christ dying on the cross for us,he want's us to turn from sin but again this is our choice."Sin is a choice forced upon us though. E.g. in the Garden of Eden, it is God's fault that the apple that they ate was there, isn't it? And if he created those two "images" of himself in such a way that they were tempted, what does that say about him?"Ok,God is simply doing what any parent who loves their child would do! The fact that a child has free will doesn't stop them from being naughty and punished for doing wrong!!""Man takes God out of the equation in the same way a disobedient child refuses to do what has been set out by his parents,doesn't stop the parents from being in charge though and definitely doesn't make them any weaker than the child either!"This is all disjointed 'cos I'm just replying as and when, but this relates to the point I made before about the "parent/child" metaphor being completely wrong. It isn't anything like God and "his creations", as you'd see us."Yes we can bring back people who have just died with the use of ,defibrilators but not after three days,or any length of time where the body has started to decompose,and NO we are not being God in this sense as i feel that even the invention of equipment like the defibrilators has been attained by the knowledg,wisdom and understanding that God has bledssed the minds of medical science with.In the book of Daniel it talks about there being an increase of knowledg in the times to come,i believe that those times are here."This is what really pisses me off about stuff like this - comments like the one you made where you're in essence talking about how the research and hours and hours of effort that medical researchers go to are because God let them or whatever. Cheapening people's life-work like that really, really f**ks me off. If they're spending days of their lives trying to work something out, that's THEM doing it? It's the same as the free-will, they're able to do it and they do it themselves, yet you're claiming it's God doing it, basically? So the accountability of God is only acceptable is the outcome is good? Anyway, re: that "book of Daniel" stuff - it's not like you need a bible to tell you that people will become more intelligent than their predecessors? Standing on the shoulders of giants? etc.? Simple logic giving us that answer? Don't need a holy book for that sort of thing, and it doesn't validate it at all."Instead of arguing half thought out points why don't you ask direct questions to which you might get direct answers,i feel you have a lot on your mind which comes out in the confusion of some of your questions,i could be wrong though!"Tried that, it didn't work."The reason that i can say that God helps us when we pray is because i have a personal relationship with God and my belief in him,he helps me when i pray so why wouldn't he help others.Mark this personal relationship that i mentioned can only come when your totally committed to believing in God,you don't believe in God or the bible"Like I said - if I made something up, and then told you that to see that it was true you had to believe in it too, you'd understandably be sceptical. Like I said before, I have never ever been given any real reason to believe that any of it is at all real, which is why I don't place any faith in it at all. That's largely why I'm replying here - to try and get some idea as to where you're coming from, but in the past 3 or 4 posts I've made virtually none of the points have been answered. You asked me to go back through and post all the questions again, but I don't really feel - having looked at the few replies you've given me - that it would change anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Just wondering, does the bible agree with theories of the big bang and the expansion of the universe?Never looked into it man,so i can't realy comment!Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 (edited) Right, I don't have the book I got all the info from with me. I've been waiting to have it back for some time. When I get it, I'll "research" the matter more so I can point out what I mean if that's any better "God didn't commit genocide,i don't know what killing your talking about exactly but i do know this,a lot of the killing by God was done in the old testament,this was a time with out any rules"Why does there not being any 'rules' mean anything? If God is perfect and all-loving blah blah blah, why would 'rules' matter? He still killed? On a mass scale (e.g. genocide, especially seeing as each time it was because it was believed God was just?)? Doesn't sound like the sort of father figure I'd want "A small example of how God is with his children can be found in the book of Judges in the bible,the Iseralites were being ruled by a king appointed by God,then they would do wrong in the eyes of God so he would cause a ruler to put them in to slavery and ill treat them.then the Iseralites would remember the God that they serve and cry out to him for deliverance,and this would move Gods hart so he would allow them to be delivered from the slavery and ill treatment,and they would be thankful but only for a while.Soon after being delivered they forgot about god and started to worship other evil gods and sin in the eyes of God and the whole process would start again This went on for a LONG time If you want to know how long then read Judges The point here is that the Isralites never lost their right of choice to go back and sin again,when they sinned they were punished,when they cried out to God they were delivered,but don't confuse the fact that they didn't just stop believing in God they sinned against God and thats why they were punished! "Again, the whole arguement that he lets them do wrong and harms them seems a bit odd? You keep refering to God as a father and us as his children, yet no parents claims to be a perfect, omniscient being that can alter the fabric of the world? Slight difference there, which takes it into a completely different context? Parents aren't trying to get their kids into their own happy, joyful afterlife, in spite of the fact that the parent (if it's true to the God/human context) created them and their environment in such a way that it made it natural for them to sin?Just noticed this:"I still don't know which part of the bible your talking about when you mention God having let things get to a state of affairs he had to kill people to make it right! Tell me which bible story your commenting on and i'll answer your question here!"The story you even mentioned yourself suggests that people lead a terrible life of slavery, which God forced them into? That wasn't what I was refering to, but most of the stories (similarly to the one you put up) in which God kills are because people are doing what God wants? Isn't that a bit selfish? I mean, I know you're going to say "Yes, but he gave us the world", but if he's perfect, all-loving, benevolent, etc., why does he get so moved by people not worshipping him? Seems a bit odd to create people and then make them do what you want, then when they don't you make their life Hell (even literally? )? There are character flaws like this in God that no-one seems to explain adequately?"Ofcourse God is altering things all the time,he wouldn't be able to answer the requests of those in need with out changing things,but this is us requesting things to be changed,God doesn't just alter things for the sake of it."And you criticised ME for being vague? "Remember sin is our choice,God has put provision in place for us to be forgiven for our sins by Christ dying on the cross for us,he want's us to turn from sin but again this is our choice."Sin is a choice forced upon us though. E.g. in the Garden of Eden, it is God's fault that the apple that they ate was there, isn't it? And if he created those two "images" of himself in such a way that they were tempted, what does that say about him?"Ok,God is simply doing what any parent who loves their child would do! The fact that a child has free will doesn't stop them from being naughty and punished for doing wrong!!""Man takes God out of the equation in the same way a disobedient child refuses to do what has been set out by his parents,doesn't stop the parents from being in charge though and definitely doesn't make them any weaker than the child either!"This is all disjointed 'cos I'm just replying as and when, but this relates to the point I made before about the "parent/child" metaphor being completely wrong. It isn't anything like God and "his creations", as you'd see us."Yes we can bring back people who have just died with the use of ,defibrilators but not after three days,or any length of time where the body has started to decompose,and NO we are not being God in this sense as i feel that even the invention of equipment like the defibrilators has been attained by the knowledg,wisdom and understanding that God has bledssed the minds of medical science with.In the book of Daniel it talks about there being an increase of knowledg in the times to come,i believe that those times are here."This is what really pisses me off about stuff like this - comments like the one you made where you're in essence talking about how the research and hours and hours of effort that medical researchers go to are because God let them or whatever. Cheapening people's life-work like that really, really f**ks me off. If they're spending days of their lives trying to work something out, that's THEM doing it? It's the same as the free-will, they're able to do it and they do it themselves, yet you're claiming it's God doing it, basically? So the accountability of God is only acceptable is the outcome is good? Anyway, re: that "book of Daniel" stuff - it's not like you need a bible to tell you that people will become more intelligent than their predecessors? Standing on the shoulders of giants? etc.? Simple logic giving us that answer? Don't need a holy book for that sort of thing, and it doesn't validate it at all."Instead of arguing half thought out points why don't you ask direct questions to which you might get direct answers,i feel you have a lot on your mind which comes out in the confusion of some of your questions,i could be wrong though!"Tried that, it didn't work."The reason that i can say that God helps us when we pray is because i have a personal relationship with God and my belief in him,he helps me when i pray so why wouldn't he help others.Mark this personal relationship that i mentioned can only come when your totally committed to believing in God,you don't believe in God or the bible"Like I said - if I made something up, and then told you that to see that it was true you had to believe in it too, you'd understandably be sceptical. Like I said before, I have never ever been given any real reason to believe that any of it is at all real, which is why I don't place any faith in it at all. That's largely why I'm replying here - to try and get some idea as to where you're coming from, but in the past 3 or 4 posts I've made virtually none of the points have been answered. You asked me to go back through and post all the questions again, but I don't really feel - having looked at the few replies you've given me - that it would change anything.Sorry you feel that way Mark,didn't think i was going to change such a negitive point of view.Very early on i did mention that the difference between me and you is my total belief in the Holy Spirit and your total disbelief in the same we simply wouldn't ever see things even remotely the same because we are worlds apart in our views,I've tried to meet every argument with what i considered to be a christian point of view but your never going to understand that because you don't believe in what i believe in! and i'm not saying you should either,afterall nobody forced me and i'm totally comfortable with my belief,Seems to me like you would rather pick holes in christianity than actually discuss points with a positive frame of mind,the point i made about the doctors being blessed by God to do the work they do is something i really believe in,but you just rubbished it with no regard for it being my point of view,Thats all good though, I'm never going to change your mind,and i'm definitely going to worship God till i die so i guess thats that!Mike. Edited February 16, 2006 by desire68 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Sorry you feel that way Mark,didn't think i was going to change such a negitive point of view.Very early on i did mention that the difference between me and you is my total belief in the Holy Spirit and your total disbelief in the same we simply wouldn't ever see things even remotely the same because we are worlds apart in our views,I've tried to meet every argument with what i considered to be a christian point of view but your never going to understand that because you don't believe in what i believe in! and i'm not saying you should either,afterall nobody forced me and i'm totally comfortable with my belief,Seems to me like you would rather pick holes in christianity than actually discuss points with a positive frame of mind,the point i made about the doctors being blessed by God to do the work they do is something i really believe in,but you just rubbished it with no regard for it being my point of view,Thats all good though, I'm never going to change your mind,and i'm definitely going to worship God till i die so i guess thats that!Mike. I "rubbished" it purely because it annoys me so, so much. If you believe in it, fine. You put across your point of view, and I mine.The reason I was "picking holes" was that I wanted to try and find answers to questions - flaws, that were what I "picked holes" in - that were stopping me from wanting to try and believe in it. It's the way I work, basically. Too empirical I guess.If you look at my earlier posts, they aren't particularly negative. The reason they've gotten more so was just that I didn't get any replies to the questions I posted there, which is why I was rapidly losing interest. Equally, until I get the book back, I can't point out exactly what I was refering to with some points.The un-answered questions thing isn't me having a mega go at you, by the way. Even when talking to religious leader types around here, I still get no answers. Ah well, life goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Seriously Mark,do you think that you will ever be satisfied with any explanation to your questions??Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 If they're satisfactory, yes Nah, if they actually fully answered them, then yes, I possibly would be. No-one ever seems to though, and I can't put my faith into something I have large doubts/reservations about, basically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Mark nobody knows all the answers,most religions rely on a constant teaching of some shape or form,My father in-law is 65 years old and he admits he's still learning and he has a wealth of knowledge whit regards to his Christian faith!Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Yeah, I'm not saying they've gotta be The Answer or anything, just giving me a better understanding or something would be enough I suppose. What I mean is that I'm probably being incorrect/naive in some stuff, so... f**k, I don't know. 4:51am. Not good. In 6 hours, I'm going to be in a darkroom EDIT: I'm not being disrespectful to you here, btw Mike. I can see how it might come across like that, but I don't mean it in that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb88 Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Why are you up at almost 5am?!?! hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Yeah, I'm not saying they've gotta be The Answer or anything, just giving me a better understanding or something would be enough I suppose. What I mean is that I'm probably being incorrect/naive in some stuff, so... f**k, I don't know. 4:51am. Not good. In 6 hours, I'm going to be in a darkroom EDIT: I'm not being disrespectful to you here, btw Mike. I can see how it might come across like that, but I don't mean it in that way No disrespect taken Mark,these discussions cause somone like me to have a good look at myself to access if i know all that i think i know,or should know about being a christian.I'm allways left feeling that i need to constantly be on top of my game and if i slacken one bit,there will be somone to pick up on it!! It's all good though!Mike.Why are you up at almost 5am?!?! hahahaI can't answer for Mark, Noz,but i'm on a 12hr night shift for two weeks ,and this is my first week lol!Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Why are you up at almost 5am?!?! hahaha f**k, I don't know. 4:51am. Not good. In 6 hours, I'm going to be in a darkroom Haha, 6 hours after my post, I was still asleep. 9 hours after my post, I got up. 9 1/2 hours after my post I had a curry. 10 hours after my post, I went to the darkroom.Priorities: sorted.Anyway, in answer to your question, Noz: LFS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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