Tubeless

[Tomm]

Right, tubeless. 5 years ago, this was the 'next big thing', but I don't know a single person who uses it yet. It seems so obvious, but there are clearly downsides I don't know about.

I've heard the air burp thing, does that happen at XC pressures (35 psi)? And obviously they're harder to fix (take a spare tube). I'm thinking about building some new MTB wheels and I fancy trying tubeless.

So:

What are the downsides?

Goo vs no goo?

As far as I can work out, I need a rim, tyre and valve adaptor thing. Is that it?!

[trialsmax04]

I'm going to do it when I have enough money for new tyres. I'm going down the ghetto tubeless route, by knife'ing open a bmx tube as a rim strip. I think tyre choice is pretty important to be honest. Although with mist tyres I think burping only becomes an issue at say <30psi on narrower rims. If I remember, the wider the rim the less chance of burps.

[Fish-Finger-er]

theres a post off me, saying what i did with regards to my ghetto set up, in this forum somewhere, ill go dig it out after this post. but as a quick answer:

no downsides as far as i can tell(from what must now be 600+ miles of use)

I use goo, but its ono agricultural tyre sealant, not the expensive latex stuff. I have to use goo cos im doing it ghetto.

as for what you need, I got a standard set of wheels(i.e the wheels and tyres id been running on the weekend before), a bottle of tyre sealant, a stanley knife and a bmx tube with a threaded valve.

never had an air burp, I wouldnt say punctures are any harder to fix, there just less common. (i used to carry 3 spare tubes on a day long ride, I now carry one), its still a case of whipping the wheel off, tyre off,you then just take off the bmx innertube/rimtape device, and whack in a regular tube, and your away to go. granted this then means at the end of the ride, youll have to do your tubeless set up again(about 5 minutes) but the only way I see ill get a puncture is if I get a tyre ruining puncture anyway( i have read that some people use car style patches(i.e with a plug on the end you cut off,to repair tyres).

Ive never had an airburp, but used to pinch flat semi regular(whether it was just a pinch flat, or a puncture which i didnt notice which then caused me to pinch flat ill never know), so at xc pressures id say airburping is a pretty much none existant issue(using spank subrosa rims. with maxxis advantage/ignitor tyres for reference)

edit/new post: (depending on how quick i was)

heres the thread on it, any more questions about, feel free to shoot over a pm(although to be fair, googling ghetto tubeless will do)

boom!

think mike singleton tried it in a trials bike years ago, and came to the conclusion that under 25psi burps happened on the back a little too regular,but couldnt fault it for xc use.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Fish-Finger-er

[Tomm]

I want to do it properly if I can - get proper rims and proper tyres, mostly just because I need new rims and that's what got me onto thinking about it. I've read a few posts that suggest that non-UST high rollers work fine as tubeless, even without sealant.

Did you have to use a compressor? Apparently with proper UST you don't need to, even without sealant.

Have you seen these tubeless puncture repair kits? http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=7971

[Fish-Finger-er]

erm, I used a compressor, but not like a garage airline style one(i.e 140psi in an air hose, ready to go), just a cheap £20 12v boot of the car jobby(i was going to take them to work and do them with the airline, but had read that you could do it with a trackpump (which i dont own) so figured id give it a go with that one, low and behold it worked.

the use of sealant or not was never a factor for me(mainly because even if i went ust, id never run it without sealant,as it gives you puncture protection)

im intrigued to see how well those tubeless repairs would work, (given that some people say they're the dogs bollocks) but until i need a repair, i obviously cant try it out.

yea, makes sense to go ust if your changing rims anyway(I probably would of done, but was skint, wanted to ride the weekend, and superstar components where selling them wheels for pennies)

[trialsmax04]

Right Tomm. Just finished going tubeless the "ghetto" way on the Ragley. Firstly, if you dont have a compressor, or access to one, I think it could be hard to do without one.

However now my new tires are seated there nice. Cant ride them properly because of a knackard shoulder, but it has dropped weight off the bike straight off (mind you i was running duel ply and am now running single ply rubber queens).

I had a slight problem with the carcass being slightly porus (pissed me off a bit on new tyres, but then again they are cheap tyres), but once the sealant was shaken up inside they seam to be sealed without a problem.

20" tubes where perfect for the ghetto version rim strips.

[howvard]

have tried them on my xc race bike and there ok but there so heavy

[trialsmax04]

The whole point of tubeless it to make it lighter?!

[24martin]

i've still got a pair of 26" tubeless wheels in my garage from my first trials bike a few years ago, im pretty sure the brand on the rims was 'rigida'!

unfortunately i cant offer any opinion on a tubeless setup because ironically i always ran my tubeless rims with tubes.. i think this was due to a lack of any tubeless tyre's in my lbs at the time! but yea this was like 5 years ago.

pretty decent rim's though, much stronger than any rim i've abused before/since i had them!

[Tomm]

The whole point of tubeless it to make it lighter?!

I thought that but, uh, it doesn't.

I did some sums today. Basically your tubeless rim is approximately the same weight as a normal rim - a Mavic XM819 (UST) is listed as 10g lighter than a 719 (standard). You don't need rim tape (you might save 30g) but you do need goo (60g ish) so let's call it quits. So it all comes down to tyres and tubes, and this is the kicker; tubeless (UST) tyres are approximately 200g heavier than non-UST alternatives which is exactly the weight of a standard inner tube. Take a 2.35 high roller single ply for example - The normal one is quoted at 740g, whereas the UST one has thicker sidewalls so it's 950g.

If you google it, there are quite a few people using non-UST tyres on tubeless rims - that seems like a good possibility and at least you'd save the weight of an inner tube, but by all accounts they're perhaps not as reliable, harder to seat properly, and are more prone to air burps etc. Doesn't work with the ghetto way, either.

So the advantages seem to be all about puncture protection and being able to run lower pressures, the downsides being that it's expensive and a faff to change tyres (if you use sealant) - the weight is about the same either way.

At the moment my plan is to try it with a normal high roller on the front, and perhaps a UST one on the back. That way at least I'd save a reasonable amount of weight on the front, and the back one won't be any lighter but will be pinch-proof.

[trialsmax04]

Do it ghetto boy I did a topic ages ago, and found some significant weight savings. Ill see if i can find it. Edit: Fish finger posted it up the top

Edited July 7, 2011 by trialsmax04

[trialsmax04]

Little update for those who are interested. I have just come back from a ride this morning on the tubeless set up. The tyres are no longer seeping, so I presume the good ride helped a lot. Grip wise I now have less than before, although I blame this on the tyres, as I went from 2.35 super tacky duel ply high rolers, to the cheepest (£15 ea) Continental rubber queens. I ran them at 30psi to start with, but I know that these tyres can be run much lower due to there mahhoooossiive volume! Im waiting on a pressure guage to arrive so i can fettle with the pressure on the trail, as 30psi felt too hard on the technical sections. I just need to gain my confidence in pressures that i can run without burping them (At a guess should be ok to 20psi).

By doing the tubeless conversion ive dropped over a lb in weight from the bike (was 33lbs, now 32.1 lbs, but mainly down to the change in tyres). Havnt really felt a dramatic increase in rolling. But then again I am running DH wheels (mavic 729 rims, bulb hub with a 12mm axle on the back, Sun single track rim on specialized stout hub front) so I knew i wouldnt really feel the difference unless I had new wheels.

When funds allow, I may invest in a Superstar wheelset (my mate has them and they seem very good) to drop the weight.

Tomm, have you seen the Stans wheelset that superstar do? Its pretty damn cheep, might be what your after?

The reviews I think are useless, as there is a ton of idiots who complain about the spokes coming lose after a few rides, where as to me (personally) its part of having a new wheel to re-tension and true the wheel after a few rides?

Anyway, info-rant over. Hope this may help. Im very impressed so far

[Tomm]

Had a look at Superstar - their brake pads are fine and I've heard good things about their chain devices. Not sure I would use their hubs though? I'm a Hope (or Chris King!) kind of guy. Perhaps on an XC bike it's not so important. Anyway, they're out of stock. They do seem to have some pretty good offers though.

I'm not doing it ghetto. 1) it seems like a massive faff 2) I'm buying new rims anyway, might as well pay the £15 extra for tubeless compatible.

[Mr_scott]

Being a mechanic at a trail centre I see and work on a hell of a lot of tubeless wheels and have laced quite a few rims up.

I personally don't run tubeless, I very, very rarely get punctures and I ain't seriously fussed on the weight of my bike so I spend my money on other things.

Although the Stan's No Tubes option works well using their own rims. I've seated non tubeless tyres on all three rim options with ease. Mainly Maxxis tyres using sealant.

Also using the Stan's tubeless rim tape on non Stan's rims works as long as the inner wall of the rim is shallow, and again, using sealant.

As for valves, Stan's again, work for me every time.

I work with a few guys that run Flow rims on Maxxis non tubeless tyres front and rear. We do a lot of riding (trail centre stuff, natural stuff and even DH runs) and I can't remember them ever having a problem with this set up.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Mr_scott

[Tomm]

Where do you work Craig?

I ride a lot in the peaks and quite a lot of it is spiky pointy rocks. I get pinches (on the rear) probably 1 in 3 rides, enough to think about alternatives. But I don't know that I would trust non-UST tyres for peak district riding. Maybe trail centres/smooth wooded trails.

[Shaun H]

Where do you work Craig?

I ride a lot in the peaks and quite a lot of it is spiky pointy rocks. I get pinches (on the rear) probably 1 in 3 rides, enough to think about alternatives. But I don't know that I would trust non-UST tyres for peak district riding. Maybe trail centres/smooth wooded trails.

A bit more pressure maybe

As I mentioned in the other thread, my dad runs tubeless. He had a burp coming off a small drop at Cannock as he had too much steering lock as he landed and at the same time teared the sidewall (these are non-tubeless tyres I think). He's no longer sure he'll stick with tubeless but other than that he's had no pinches or punctures since converting.

[Mr_scott]

I work at Afan in South Wales - the Glyncorrwg mountain bike centre. If you're ever up for a ride, let me know.

Arhhh, the Peaks. Definitely use UST. What rims you running? It might be worth just trying the stans rim tape in your current rims, just to see what you think of tubeless before you spend money on some expensive tubeless wheelset.

Like I said, if the inner wall of the rim is pretty shallow, you can usually get away with it. Just make sure you completely cover the spoke holes and that the tape is stuck down well... and use the sealant.

Hope that helps man.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Mr_scott

[Tomm]

Yeah, that's useful, cheers. I just wondered if you rode in the peaks since your profile says you live in Sheff (Hmm, thinking about it my profile says Manchester and I haven't lived there for 2 years).

I've got a Mavic 729 and a Sun Singletrack at the moment - massively overbuilt for XC. I'm thinking about getting 719s or 819s (essentially the same but tubeless), there's not a massive difference in price so thought I might give tubeless a try.

[isitafox]

Good old Peak district riding, South Head and Jacobs Ladder ***, though I haven't done either for about 8 years and think I'd probably die if I tried now!

[trialsmax04]

I've got a Mavic 729 and a Sun Singletrack at the moment - massively overbuilt for XC.

That is the exact combo im running! Just rode back from work and seriously felt the benefits on the climbs.

Craig (Mr Scott) an few of us are heading up to Afan week after next. Will you be around? Be cool to grab some local knowledge, maybe fancy a ride?

Max

[Mr_scott]

That is the exact combo im running! Just rode back from work and seriously felt the benefits on the climbs.

Craig (Mr Scott) an few of us are heading up to Afan week after next. Will you be around? Be cool to grab some local knowledge, maybe fancy a ride?

Max

What days you coming up? I work most weekends. If im not working I'll come along for a ride.

[trialsmax04]

Coming up on Monday the 18th and leaving that Friday (22nd). Should be staying at Afan itself, and Planning on riding whatever we can (skyline, the wall Ect) and hopefully a bit in the breccons, and possibly cwm carn if it's any good.

[Fish-Finger-er]

Had a look at Superstar - their brake pads are fine and I've heard good things about their chain devices. Not sure I would use their hubs though? I'm a Hope (or Chris King!) kind of guy. Perhaps on an XC bike it's not so important. Anyway, they're out of stock. They do seem to have some pretty good offers though.

I'm not doing it ghetto. 1) it seems like a massive faff 2) I'm buying new rims anyway, might as well pay the £15 extra for tubeless compatible.

a little snippet that may be relevant, im running superstar wheels, no complaints. Ideally i wanted to run hopes, but these wheels cost me less than a hope hub on a semi decent rear rim would of done.

[Mr_scott]

Coming up on Monday the 18th and leaving that Friday (22nd). Should be staying at Afan itself, and Planning on riding whatever we can (skyline, the wall Ect) and hopefully a bit in the breccons, and possibly cwm carn if it's any good.

I'm not in work on the Tuesday so if you want me to show you some natural stuff close by, i can. Other than that I usually ride after work.

[trialsmax04]

Would be well up for a ride whenever Tuesday could be good. Do you venture into the Breccons much? We where planning a ride there at some point. Regarding my other topic, if I where to lock our bikes in my car (and lock them together, as well as to the car internally), do you think they would be thief proof?