Scoox

I'll see if I can get some TNN greens locally... postage to China alone costs nearly as much as the pads. But I still think there's something wrong with my set-up. A lot of riders use Echo or Zhi pads here without problems.

I run a medium grind and Echo pads which are quite soft. The pads sit perfectly square to the rim; i actually bought a set of Echo SL clamps because my frame's 4-bolt mounts weren't perfectly square and the original TR clamps do not allow for angular adjustments). Since other riders report good performance and I hope to get this sorted, I am sure there's something wrong with my set-up or my brake, so I'll re-bleed tomorrow and see how I get on. The I don't trust the brake when I hop forward towards an edge for fear of it slipping OFF the edge--once the rear tyre is in mid-air no matter how hard you brake you are guaranteed a sore bum for a week.. This was never a problem with my old HS33 which I used regular for 4 years, but that bike is now in Spain and i am in China...

Acutally my bike is an Echo 24". Rides lovely but I don't trust Magura brakes enough to make progress in my riding. I prefer big wheels but I'd happily trade that for a more dependable rear brake.

For me the main advantage of mods is the fact that you can run a rear disc brake. I personally have had better luck with discs than with rim brakes. I feel I can up bigger stuff on my 24 inch Echo than I could on my mod back in the day, although I am still a beginner. However I am considering going back to mod because I want to try a rear disc brake (I've heard very positive things about this set-up).

I am running a rear 2011 (?) HS33 with a water bleed and it seems to have excellent bite but the lever feels spongy even after bleeding, and it has too much travel. The pads are already very close to the rim (about 0.2 mm, with lever at rest). I realise that these are the classic symptoms of either a leak or air bubbles. I always bleed the brake fully submerged so there is no chance for air to get in. I'll bleed it again tomorrow in case it's a leek (which I assume would be if performance improves). The latest version of the HS33 brake seems to have some design flaws, the biggest one of them is that the lever needs to be pulled through about 3° before the pistons start moving out of the slave cylinders. I did a fully submerged water bleed and I am pretty sure there is no air in the system. The problem is in the lever and is caused by the new reach adjustment system. When set-up so that the lever is as far as possible from the bars, the problem goes away. So if I want my levers a little closer, I am also going to have to pull them further. I wonder if you guys have had better luck with the new maggies, because when I ride my bike I am well aware that the weakest link is the HS33, and I don’t trust it at all because my last fall was because of it and my butt was in pain for a week. My Avid BB7 has been nothing but joy: inexpensive, extremely reliable, virtually maintenance-free for the past half-year and maintenance is a doodle, By contrast, my HS33 cost me 3 times as much, is unreliable, requires constant maintenance and maintenance is a PITA, especially with the 4-bolt booster which I use in a futile attempt to improve its poor performance... So I am thinking about getting a 20-inch Echo with double-discs and forget about the hassles. One thing I like about discs is that bite seems to improve if you pour water on them e.g. while bedding them in. With rim brakes you get the opposite effect. This fact alone makes me want a rear disc even more as it's quite humid where I live. I'd like to know is if these problems (especially the reach adjustment problem) are specific to my brake/set-up and also whether discs can be just as dependable as a properly working HS33.when doing big stuff. I'll re-bleed tomorrow and see what happens. Thanks!

How does the HS1 stack up against the Cleansweep 3 in terms of braking power and modulation?

Haven't tried yet but thought about it. The problem is that here in China they are quite expensive. I can get them from Tarty but P&P is about as much as the price of the pads, so I am waiting for something to brake so I can warrant an order haha. Maybe I will order a pair when I go back home in the summer. In the meantime, if anyone using TNNs has a Vernier calliper at hand could they please confirm the relevant measurement, and possibly do the same for normal plastic pads? Thanx

Unlikely, like Psycholist said above, the nipple-clip coupling "...just holds the brake pad onto the piston" and nothing else. This means that the lateral forces i.e. the actual braking forces are transferred to the slave through other parts of the backings. I bought 4 different sets of brand-new pads two days ago (to try different compounds) and they all have the same wobble problem, so maybe it's not the pads. Maybe it's meant to be like this... Yet I have a cheap bike with cheap vees and they don't wobble at all, kind of annoying I might stick two bits of plastic to the backings to fill up the gap, will post back once it's done.

My 2011 HS33s do the same, however I disagree with the above replies that this is normal. It is not. I've owned two sets of HS33s previously (pre 2005 version) and I never noticed any wobble or play whatsoever. The Echo TR rim brake that came with my Echo 24 bike dind't have any wobble either, and it's supposedly a cheaper brake. But recently I bought a 2011 HS33 and it had this problem. However I am using it with the Echo pads as it was supplied without official Magura pads (cheaper this way), so maybe the Echo pads are the problem? Will have to wait till I get new pads e.g. TNNs. When you apply the brakes, the pad backing suddenly clanks against the slave. This in mechanics is called "dynamic loading" (fast), as opposed to "static loading" (gradual and slow). Dynamic loading is more likely to cause things to crack or snap. Therefore technically it shouldn't be like this. So if all HS33 brakes are like this then it is normal in the sense that all brakes are manufactured to very poor tolerances, in which case I hope (and I am sure) Echo will come up with a much better alternative very soon.

I bought an Icetoolz 08C5 spoke key last week. It caused damaged to my spoke nipples by biting into the metal. Also it was a b**ch to use (too tight). I sent it right back and bought a cheapo one instead. I also bought an Icetoolz 8mm allen key for my cranks and found that it was a bit too big, maybe because of the chrome coating, so it wouldn't go into some bolts easily. The materials don't seem very durable either, easily dented/scratched.

I have a similar problem and I'd like to hear your tips/views. I bought a BB7 with a +20mm adapter and an Avid 185mm rotor. I also have an Echo TR disc brake and corresponding 180mm Echo TR rotor for testing. (Fork, Brake, Disc - Result) SL, Echo, 180 - Perfec fit, original configuration. Suggests mounts are well positioned... SL, Echo, 185 - (Not tested) SL, Avid, 180 - Rotor close to caliper SL, Avid, 185 - Rotor rubs calliper so hard that wheel cannot turn Urban, Echo, 180 - (Not tested) Urban, Echo, 185 - (Not tested) Urban, Avid, 180 - Almost perfect fit and no rubbing Urban, Avid, 185 - A smaller rotor would fit better, pads hit rotor arms no rubbing though (I wanted to do a pretty table but the forum seems to trim consecutive whitespace characters...) The original configuration SL fork + TR brake + 180mm rotor has no problems. I am assuming that all ISO mounts are the same here, therefore I expect the Avid brake with the 20mm adapter to fit. So I am just curious as to whether this is a problem with the the forks or the brakes. The BB7 brake works with the SL forks but not the Urban forks; since both forks being made by the same company, it's got to be a problem with the mounts not being welded in the right place. Popping on some washers will do the trick, it's just that common sense tells me that NOT using washers (and NOT using adapters for that matter) results in the stiffest possible set-up. I could also try a slightly smaller after-market rotor. The Echo rotor fits well in terms of size but is unsuitable because it is designed for wider pads (with BB7 pads you are pretty much braking on the rotor holes).

It is something I believe to be true based on my observations: Echo sell directly to individual local customers. Considering the population of China (over 1.3 billion), and assuming all Chinese trials bike brands being equally popular in China, if the biketrials market was big in China Echo would be pretty busy answering phones and shipping orders, but they've only got 3 or 4 people answering the phones (I called several times and usually the same person answers the phone and deals with my query). Echo only has one official Echo distributor in China, which retails both online and from an inconspicuously tiny shop tucked away in a residential alley in Beijing which also sells MTB and DH kit to stay profitable. A lot of people here who ride expensive bikes don't know what a trials bike is or do but have never seen one. This includes bike store staff. Other than at a cycling event, where I saw 5 trials riders, I haven't seen any trials riders anywhere in the past 3 years since I came to China (but I have seen quite a few Chinese guys on skateboards and BMXs. There are a few good trials riders in China but in general the level is very basic compared with Europe. Most people here wouldn't spend more than 1000 Yuan on a bike because life is not easy here. The average Chinese worker works very hard or long hours and earns little, for example 60p an hour working in Mc Donalds. Renting a room starts at about £70/month in a shared house in the city where I live, more in Beijing. So basically expensive bikes are viewed as "a sport for the rich", and most people here are not rich.

The information is on the website but it's in Chinese because they only sell directly to local residents. You need to have an account with the Chinese equivalent of Paypal and you also need a Chinese bank account. That or someone in China who is willing to help you buy one. Of course shipping one bike to say the UK is going to cost a lot of cash and there might be tax. In addition, if you have any problems it's going to be a headache to deal with (think sending the frame back to China). Official distributors are there to make our life a lot easier.

Also note that at the moment frames and forks sold in mainland China are lower grade. This is because manufacturers are aware that the big bucks are abroad because the trials market is relatively small in China, so naturally their top priority is to keep the big customers happy by giving them the highest quality parts they produce. Therefore if you buy from a non-official retailer you might find your brake mounts and/or dropouts are not square and/or the frame is scratched. I had all of the these problems and luckily I was able to have the frame swapped directly by Echo, however when you buy from some dude off Facebook nobody is going to take care of you if you get a bad product.

I got my bike directly from Echo because I live in China. The whole bike costs about 200 GBP. "wow, that's neat!" you might think, but when you buy a bike this way you are pretty much on your own. I found they were problems with the bike and I had to return several parts to the factory to be exchanged, and then I also wanted to swap some of the standard parts with better parts. In total it's taken me several months to get the bike ready (buying from independent on-line shops in China is a nightmare, they advertise stock they don't have and often sell fake goods e.g. Avid brakes, helmets, etc which from Tarty would be 100% genuine i.e. no hassle). Tarty would have been able to get me up and running in a under a week including shipping because they have stock available and expertise. I think this is also included in the price, and frankly in hindsight it would have been money well spent.

Monty stuff is cheese. I think they'll just retire after the M5. I mean, seriously, what next, a paper bike? We have reached a point where trials bikes can't get much better. The lightest bikes are almost too weak. Titanium could be the next big thing, or at least 7075 alu frames. But carbon fibre... not for me thanks. In terms of geometry nothing is going to change much. All brands are rushing to bring out new models each year. Different paint job, slightly different geo, cut-outs in different places, etc. But essentially it's all the same, just different flavours to suit all tastes. We have reached a point where new bikes are not necessarily better than older models. Now more money doesn't necessarily buy you a better bike. Just a different bike. I think it's fair to say that most of us don't buy a new frame because we love to have the latest model--we usually buy it to replace a broken one. And in the world of trials everything eventually brakes, so in my opinion if a part is already well designed, there is no need for Koxx, Monty or whoever to alter the design it and possibly f**k it up. Things like the Echo Urban forks which are very popular haven't changed much, and people still buy them because they do a pretty good job.

Both products have their pros and cons, it's just that Echo innovate (e.g. spanish bottom bracket, integrated chain tensioner, etc) and Zhi are just running behind copying everything the competition does. And usually copies are of lower quality because the copied design is not fully understood or inadequate manufacturing techniques are used. Therefore Zhi products look good but are not necessarily good. The quality of Echo products is improving, and some of the parts they used to outsource are not being manufactured in-house, which means we will see faster product development. If you have any design suggestions you can even email them to Echo and they will reply. I (and probably others) emailed Echo about considering wider hub flange spacing and they took it on board for the new TR hubs. There was a problem with my frame and they replaced it immediately.

The first part is correct, but I am not sure whether Echo did threaten Tarty to stop supplying as Tarty is one of their largest customers and also a very popular retailer. Echo and Zhi used to be a single company run by three partners who were also good friends. One of them nicked the designs and started Zhi on his own. Apparently this man has gone great lengths to harm Echo and compromise its reputation by reportedly impersonated Echo and selling Echo products that of course were never delivered as he has no Echo stock; afterwards customers contacted Echo in anger to complain. Some of Zhi's frames look very nice, in fact I almost bought one a while ago, but Echo have been really nice to me and are an honest company whose success is based on quality and fair competition not screwing other people, so as a matter of principle I don't buy Zhi. Here in China, where Echo and Zhi are readily available and considerably more affordable than imported brands such as Monty or Koxx, there is a general consensus amongst trials riders that Zhi products are of lower quality.

I've just been on the phone to Hope because I had a question about spares and I also asked whether the Hope Tech brake would be discontinued. They told me that they plan to discontinue it, but they obviously didn't say when. They said though that spares will continue to be available.

Will try that next time, thanks!

You are just jealous The fluorescent tape still does the same job as my previous rim tape and it's about the same weight, so why not? Plus the tape came in 10m rolls so I've put the rest on sockets and switches so I can see them at night. With this stuff the possibilities are endless!

That would be because it is shit: bulky, heavier than most other hydraulic brake lever bodies (whether disc or rim), uses strange non-standard bolts, lever blade shape makes it easy for your finger to slip off it, cannot use shroud+olive so it's a bitch to replace a snapped hose, etc. In addition, the slave cylinders are too big so it's easy to hit your ankles on them, and the tolerances are ridiculous (the pad can be moved around, whereas in Echo brakes the pad has hardly any play). Today I shortened my hose and it was indeed a bitch to do. In my old pre-05 maggies this would have been a 1 minute job and I wouldn't risk gashing my finger with a stanley knife. By the way, is there an easy way to get the hose off the barbed fittings? I tried warming it up with a cigarette lighter but it didn't work very well, perhaps a hot-air gun? I'd like to know how you guys do this. I'd say you can. In the 05 edition the hose leaves the lever body at an angle rather than parallel to the bars, which means that the hose, instead of running nice and close to the bars, sticks out and is more susceptible to snapping during a crash. Echo brakes are specifically designed for trials and are going to kick some Magura ass when they release the new SL at the end of the year.

+1 I have the exact same set-up. By the way I phoned Tarty and they advised me to use engine antifreeze/coolant. They also said it was not a good idea to use screenwash, I guess it's because it has detergent which which is more likely to wash lubricant. I have bought 4 litres of OAT (organic acid technology) engine antifreeze/coolant and bath-bled my brake using 1 part antifreeze and 2 parts water. Works very well.

What a wonderful opportunity to revive a 7 year old thread and annoy those of you who find the art of thread revival irritating. A couple of days ago it crossed my mind that it'd be very cool having fluorescent (i.e. light-emitting) rim tapes so I went ahead and bought a roll of fluorescent adhesive tape online. Here is the result: Looks much cooler than I expected, and it certainly gets looks, in case the squeal of my rear HS33 was not enough. The light wears off to a mild yet still visible glow after a few minutes. To "re-charge" it I spin the wheel and shine a light torch for a few seconds, after which the tape becomes very bright again.

Maybe I am just being silly but what does "bleeding properly" mean? As I see it, a proper bleed means first and foremost no air bubbles and second no traces of old oil. It is easier to fulfil these requirements when bath-bleeding because the whole brake is submerged in liquid so there is definitely no air. Now, all things being equal, water is always going to give better/snappier lever feel because it's less viscous. It's physics and it's nothing to do with the quality of your bleed. So I challenge your view that oil can give you the same lever feel as water. I also don't understand why you propose using a higher viscosity oil: if the original oil is already viscous enough to make people switch to water, how is higher viscosity oil going to help? Can anybody answer my question about antifreeze?