Mike Poyzer @ Onza

We still do both sizes.

Thanks for all the feedback comments. The Limey 26 was just playing with ideas and is just experimental. The 3 mod frames are first proto's of our new line up. The Limey 20" will go into production but with some cosmetic changes and probably disc mounts. The second and third mods are developments of a theme and one frame will go into production with elements of both. It will be our competition frame in two lengths and will be available as frame only or custom builds. It will be as light as the competition but hopefully stronger, and in two lengths. The third frame will be ridden by Danny Butler very shortly. The new "V" stem will be in production shortly and is designed to stiffen the lateral flex of the handlebar, particularly noticeable on 76 cm bars. All our prototypes are now finished in black with silver graphics so do not read anything into the colours

I am sorry if this came across as an accusation of lieing as it was not my intention. He certainly did not lie and I apologise to him if anyone got that impression. He just did not give me the complete story which would have been quicker and easier for both of us. This was not really about this particular incident , but a general observation. We get regular telephone calls where customers ask about warranty queries and these are often very vague with reference to what has actually happened and when and where the item was purchased. If you want an item replaced FOC under the warranty then we need chapter and verse about when and where purchased, we need paperwork and we need to inspect it first. The warranty is very specific with regards to our liability. With the half price replacement policy we are much more relaxed and it will pay you to give us the full story straight off. The only definite requirement is that you must return it to us for scrapping. We do not want to end up doing a half price replacement on the same item several times. I read this thread a few minutes after speaking to Mat on the phone and got a totally different perception than the one I got from him. It is particularly annoying when a thread like this leads to comments like " I won't be buying Tensiles then". I have received the crank back today and only the first five threads were stripped, nothing like enough threads to hold on a freewheel. The crank has clearly had some heavy usage and is, I would guess, well over a year old and shows no signs of any other problem. It is in actual fact a great endorsement for Tensile and a great advert for using a product in the way it was originally intended and not abusing it. If you want a UCI bashguard on your Tensile crank, get an Urban Legend and you still get ten full threads for your freewheel. By the way, its Joe@Supercycles not Jack.

The original Tensiles with long thread were designed to take a straight through freewheel and would not take an ACS/ Shimano etc because it was too long. The cranks were then modified with a step at the end of the thread to take this type of freewheel. They were never intended to take a bash as well and if so used there would be inadequate thread length and the threads would certainly be prone to stripping. The UCI version is designed to take a bash plate on the splines and still adequately hold a freewheel. We certainly stand by our half price replacement policy despite the fact that you patently do not qualify. When you call me with such a problem in the future , by the way, I would recommend that you tell me the whole truth. Tensile products are premium products and our warranty is second to none. We are certainly more sympathetic to customers who do not try to bullshit us. Being economical with the facts does not usually work as the truth usually comes out.

A lot of very valid points. To create a great show you need lots of publicity. To get lots of publicity you have to earn lots of money from the show to pay for it. Its always a Catch 22 situation. I think Wayne and others forget that the Trials show is just a feature of the Bike show. Lots of different disciplines need to be attracted and they all view each other disciplines efforts and hopefully enjoy a good rounded show. 90% of average bike show attendees would not know who any top trials riders were so bringing in expensive "foreign imports" would not be cost effective. The fact is that the riders there probably provided a great show given the limited scope for obstacles within the financial constraints. I still feel that the venue is too expensive, too remote given the age groups it wants to attract and nothing like enough publicity was given. I have seen nothing about it in magazines, websites and even Bicycle Trade publications and websites. I have been heavily involved in Trials Shows at the Cycle Show over the last few years and I know what it costs us. I also know what some of the continental riders want to charge for "appearances" and I can say for definite that they price themselves out given the return on investment. Last year we only had one continental rider but a great spectacle was created and the crowds loved it. We even had Wayne riding there. The only person to mention "has beens" was Wayne so I don't know where he's got that notion from. I have had nothing to do with the organisation of this show so I don't know how they arrived at rider selections, but I am sure it was not based on whether they thought you were a " has been" or not. Giles does have commercial considerations in the same way that we do with Cycle2007 so his choice is bound to have some bias. Nobody, however, sets out to make a show like that a "second class" operation and I am sure his riders were well capable of doing the job.

Well said, Rob.

I think Waynes rather simplistic and probably biased view of the show doesn't go half way to explaining the problems. The financial restraints on producing a show like this are a major factor in things like the trials demo, and to reduce it to a "paying peanuts" statement is probably very unfair to the organisers involved. If paying "professionals big money" was the answer, then why did the show go down the pan in the first place, when these "professionals" organised it. I think that venue is the major problem and also probably a lamentable lack of publicity on the part of the show organisers. We will again be running the Trials Section at Cycle 2007 which has a change of venue this year to Earls Court and we will have over twice as much area as last year. We are planning it to be the best yet so I hope we get the support.

Precisely what has been said. This was a prototype version of T-Rex with an 80 mm BB rise. For every frame which goes into production we probably produce 10 which never make it. Decisions for production are based on feedback from riders and we have to make commercial forecasts based on our knowledge of the market.

It may also interest you to know that the Onza Ule grip was introduced in 1996.

Some very bold flights of fancy there in your comparisons. The most outrageous however is that Tensiles copied Monty with those cranks. Quite the reverse actually as we developed the original Tensiles over two years before the Monty copy came out. This is also the reason why we changed it to the Urban Legend over which we have now retained some design rights. You really have picked some very poor examples to try and accuse us of copying.

Unfortunately its a fact of life that when you design and develop a frame with certain companies over there it will inevitably appear in their next years catalogue. Certain guys we deal with are much closer friends and will keep our designs exclusive which is where we source things like the Limey. You just have to face facts and stay a year in front of some of these main line manufacturers. Anyway, according to many on here we don't do R & D and innovation, we just copy other peoples stuff. The way we managed to copy Echo's freewheel removal system and get it to market two years before them. Its like those snakes at Magura went and copied Echo's hydraulic brake design and managed to introduce it 20 years before they did.

Where do you think they got that frame from in the first place? We are now waiting for the fourth prototype to be made with input from John Evans, Dave and Danny Butler and Rob Poyser. I would certainly say thats some R and D. For your information AluMate make T-Rex frames, Coustellier frames and several Koxx frames. Furthermore I am sure that all these companies would welcome your frame designs and would be most pleased to make them for you. Minimum usually 200 frames. Payment up front usually about two months before you get them, Payment for tooling for CNC parts Prototype set up charges, freight costs, customs clearance and duty. Then of course you have to be prepared to take the wrath of many "trials riders" who can't understand why when they have spent the best part of six months beating it into submission, you won't replace it free of charge when it cracks. Welcome to our world.

Try-All and Kris Holm rims are the same manufacturer and the same alloy. They are the same as the Onza hog but different piercing plus eyelets. The original Kris Holm was 42mm and the Try-All is 47 mm. Kris Holm has now changed to 47 mm. The Hog is also 47 mm but is now also available as a Slim Hog at 42 mm.

Tensile Freewheels now fitted as standard original equipment on four brands of Trials bikes are shortly to be available in 16 tooth and 22 tooth. These two new sizes of what is rapidly becoming the default trials freewheel will be in the UK in a couple of weeks. Total production of the freewheel has now passed 5000 and it has become a Great British success story.

Tensile. In the words of Tartybikes website, probably the stiffest on the market and a snip at £19.95.

ANY headset including an FSA XL11 will NOT fit. It is a semi integrated frame and you need a headset to suit. We have the Onza open bearing at £12 or the Onza Pro sealed at £29.95. Tel 0115 9411133.

Deep cups are a feature as you say only usually found in s/steel headsets, ie. Chris King, FSA Pig Pro S/S where the deep cup is an advantage. The huge extra strength of stainless steel over its alloy head tube does decrease the possibility of "belling" the head tube. With alloy cups however it is not such a factor as the extra length can easily deform itself and still allow the belling. We feel that that is the "optimum" length as used by ourselves and Chris King. Trials riders will not buy the S/S headsets because of the weight. You can always buy a Limey frame with its S/S rings to prevent belling.

We walked out of a department store in Taichung, Taiwan on saturday afternoon and there was Kenny doing a Red Bull demo so he obviously went on to Taiwan after Hong Kong.

These rims are a general offer from the rim manufacturer. As Adam said they are not laser cut but drilled oversize from the inside and then pierced on the outer skin. This was a technique which we developed to produce the hog shaped hole and which has now been adapted by them for other shapes. To counter this copying of techniques we have now developed a new rim profile which will be all our tooling and entrely exclusive to us.

The rear derailleur was indeed an Onza and is being replaced for half price. Mech hangers are not in fact covered by the policy as they are considered a sub component of the frame in the same way that wheel axles are not covered as they are sub components of the hub. Of course consumable items like brake pads are also not covered. I have posted the full details of the half price warranty in the news section. Although the standard length of time for the policy is 2 years, where an item has a longer written warranty, like the Tensile headset, the half price policy extends with it.

As I said, yesterday, here is the precise wording of our half price replacement policy. This is as it will appear in our Service Manuals currently being prepared for the new cycle standards legislation. Onza Half Price Replacement Policy Onza Bicycles operates a half price replacement policy on all its products but this does not include complete bicycles. It operates for two years from the date of the original purchase and is entirely discretionary with the management of Onza bicycles. It has no legal basis and does not form part of the original contract of sale. Onza Bicycles will replace for half the suggested retail price at their discretion any Onza branded frame, fork or other component damaged in any way within that two year period. This policy does not replace any other warranty stated or implied and does not affect any other statutory rights under UK law. The policy is operated under certain rules and exclusions as follows. 1. It only applies to the original purchaser of the new product and cannot be passed on or sold to a second user of the item. 2. The policy and payment is operated directly with Onza bicycles and does not involve its agents, distributors, retailers or internet sales operators. 3. The customer concerned must agree to keep the whole process confidential. Any adverse publicity generated by the user in magazines or other publications, websites, forums or blogs will automatically void any entitlement to a replacement. 4. Onza bicycles insist that all items replaced under the policy must be returned to them prior to replacement. 5. The customer must accept responsibility for carriage charges both ways for the returned item and its replacement. 6. The policy is operated strictly on the basis of suggested retail prices and will not apply to any lower prices achieved by the customer when purchasing at a discount or via a clearance deal on an internet auction site or by any other method.

There have been one or two discussions on various postings about our half price policy recently. We do have written details of the policy and I will post them tomorrow, probably on the News section under the Tensile thread. It only applies to Onza or Tensile products and not to other branded parts, ie Shimano or Magura so I am not sure about the derailleur. We do now have an Onza branded rear derailleur though.

Furthermore there is additionally the no quibble half price replacement warranty which we offer on all Onza or Tensile products for the duration of their standard warranty, (lifetime in the case of the headset). This means we replace it at half price however you killed it.

A lifetime warranty means that we do not attach a time limit to it. If you buy an FSA headset then it will have a warranty probably for 1 year. This means it underwrites its warranty covered events for one year. Outside that time they would not cover it even if it was proven faulty workmanship or materials. King give a time limit of 10 years. We felt that a 10 year warranty is effectively a lifetime warranty, so why not say so. We certainly feel that any faults which occur within the headset will certainly show up within 10 years, so it is unlikely that any claims will be made against it after that time. I don't really see it as a sales opportunity but more as an endorsement of the confidence which we have in the product. I think it perfectly right and proper for you to make comments like that on a thread like this. You are not making any comments about our products, as I would never make any about your products or those of any other rival. I only wish this was true about other competitors who have already made some unsubstantiated comparisons on this thread.

The warranty is specifically to cover faulty workmanship or materials, as is the King warranty and virtually all other warranties. There are specific exclusions such as abuse, neglect, inadequate or incorrect maintenance, failure to follow original fitting instructions, normal wear and tear and accidental damage. If the item fails as a result of faulty materials or poor and inadequate workmanship then it is covered. If it fails as a result of anything else it isn't. That is the nature and basis of legal warranties. In other words, manufacturers have a duty of care to produce products which are made to the best of their ability within the constraints of cost. If you read the King warranty it has a very specific and extensive list of exclusions and also makes the cost of return the owners responsibility. It also gives them the option to repair rather than replace. We are currently drawing up the full instructions and warranty sheet for the Tensile but it will offer the same or better safeguards.