someone Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 FROM CHINA FORUM ECHO ： http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-BACKWARD-1.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-BACKWARD-2.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-BACKWARD-3.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-BACKWARD-4.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-TEST-BACKWARD-1.jpg http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-TEST-BACKWARD-2.jpg http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-TEST-BACKWARD-3.jpg http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-FORWARD-1.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-FORWARD-2.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-FORWARD-3.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-FORWARD-4.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/ECHO-HIFI-TEST-FORWARD-1.jpg KOXX： http://www.panpa.com/test/KOXX-XTP-TEST-BACKWARD-1.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/KOXX-XTP-TEST-BACKWARD-2.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/KOXX-XTP-TEST-BACKWARD-3.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/KOXX-XTP-BACKWARD-1.jpg http://www.panpa.com/test/KOXX-XTP-BACKWARD-2.jpg http://www.panpa.com/test/KOXX-XTP-TEST-FORWARD-1.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/KOXX-XTP-TEST-FORWARD-2.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/KOXX-XTP-TEST-FORWARD-3.wmv http://www.panpa.com/test/KOXX-XTP-FORWARD-1.jpg http://www.panpa.com/test/KOXX-XTP-FORWARD-2.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartridge Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Edit: Oops, i'm silly... I presume the same loading conditions on both frames? Also seems a bit strange that the stress is the same in both forward and backward loading conditions? Very nice though, appears Echo have done their homework. Any videos from frames with normal head tube arrangements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
club_card Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 they dont work for me :D what the hell are they???? (Y) :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatsink Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I recognise the FEA program to be Cosmosworks. It all looks very pretty, but drawing any conclusions can be difficult since the welds haven't been included (which create a smoother transition between joints and hence would reduce the stress rising effects) I use that program regularily and I must say rathering embarassingly that I'm good at creating studies which don't bear any relation to reality! If you put rubbish in you get rubbish out! You've really got to give full details on the set-up to allow the results to be taken seriously, and the lack of weld fillets is already one area which reduces the accuracy. Assuming the geometry was spot on, stuff I'd want to see: 1. Material properties 2. Mesh set-up 3. Constraints (Where forces/stresses applied, which bits are fixed etc) Someone's been busy preparing all this though, so thanks for sharing it (Y) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaroncosbey Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 HO HO HO, mr heatsink seems to be spot on - Finite Element Analysis (FEA) program being used is Cosmos. First impressions to me seem like echo are employing a CAD monkey to make up 3D models of what looks like an accurate representation of their new trials frame. And run FEA add-ins to try and show their frame is stronger than the dominant leader (seXTP 2) Brilliant sales pitch - you really have to take you hats off to their marketing strategy. Expect to see alot more of this in the future guys. the only thing is using solidworks you can manipulate everything including youngs modulus, factor of saftey (FOC),constraints and area loading forces. Which means : echo are showing you what they want you to see!!! Take it with a pinch of salt (Y) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan@Trials-uk Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 (edited) Hey Aww, Poor Koxx, This is a sly way in marketing, but how ever it works, wonder what koxx is gonna be like efter seeing this :P" Anyway, hope this will help you to understand(Y) ECHO HIFI TEAM and KOXX XTP intensity test Carries on the test under the quite same not less than environment to two kind of structures, to carries on the simulation to front and to the latter two kind of stress situation. On the tube and under the tube hypothesis is 500 millimeters. Pipe wall thickness is 1.6 millimeters. Here need attention is, KOXX the XTP frame pipe wall only has 1.2 millimeters in fact, wants this experimental in model to be thinner than 25%. But considered this experiment is only the enemy test, for avoids the pipe wall thickness to the result the influence, also supposes its pipe wall is 1.6 millimeters. The material supposes is 6,061 aluminum alloys. The front release lever is the solid 415 millimeters. The stress surface is the release lever terminal plane. Supposes to front and to the after strength is 5000N (Newton) The fixed surface is on the tube and under the tube terminal. The ECHO biggest stress is not occurs above the frame pipe. But is the release lever and the intersection place size is 6.311N/M^ (Newton each square meter). Under the frame the tube stress distribution color is the even green, may see on the right side inked ribbon, the green is about 3.15N/M^. In other words, frame not special stress spot (focal point of stress), on pipe about biggest stress 3.15N/M^. The KOXX maximum torque occurs under the frame the tube and in an intersection scrap area, this kind accumulates the centralism huge stress in the situation project to be called the stress concentration, its peak value had unexpectedly achieved 7.070N/M^ (Newton each square meter), 3.15N/M^ which the tube received with the ECHO frame under compares, has surpassed 2 times. If considers the KOXX frame actual pipe wall, then two intensities are unable to place on a par. :D (Y) Best regards Danko Exuasted aye?ahah :) :"> Edited March 31, 2005 by trialsuk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durkie Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 what/where is this china forum you speak of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan@Trials-uk Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 what/where is this china forum you speak of? ← www.panpa.com (Y) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartridge Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 ECHO HIFI TEAM and KOXX XTP intensity test Carries on the test under the quite same not less than environment to two kind of structures, to carries on the simulation to front and to the latter two kind of stress situation. On the tube and under the tube hypothesis is 500 millimeters. Pipe wall thickness is 1.6 millimeters. Here need attention is, KOXX the XTP frame pipe wall only has 1.2 millimeters in fact, wants this experimental in model to be thinner than 25%. But considered this experiment is only the enemy test, for avoids the pipe wall thickness to the result the influence, also supposes its pipe wall is 1.6 millimeters. The material supposes is 6,061 aluminum alloys. The front release lever is the solid 415 millimeters. The stress surface is the release lever terminal plane. Supposes to front and to the after strength is 5000N (Newton) The fixed surface is on the tube and under the tube terminal. The ECHO biggest stress is not occurs above the frame pipe. But is the release lever and the intersection place size is 6.311N/M^ (Newton each square meter). Under the frame the tube stress distribution color is the even green, may see on the right side inked ribbon, the green is about 3.15N/M^. In other words, frame not special stress spot (focal point of stress), on pipe about biggest stress 3.15N/M^. The KOXX maximum torque occurs under the frame the tube and in an intersection scrap area, this kind accumulates the centralism huge stress in the situation project to be called the stress concentration, its peak value had unexpectedly achieved 7.070N/M^ (Newton each square meter), 3.15N/M^ which the tube received with the ECHO frame under compares, has surpassed 2 times. If considers the KOXX frame actual pipe wall, then two intensities are unable to place on a par. ← I didn't know babelfish had a Chinese option! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excaliborg Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Damn, links are down already. I hate Panpa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Papasnap Maher Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 But...at the end of the day...i havnt broke mine yet..so who cares :lol: And to be honest..i cant seem to see it breaking either (touch wood) Facts and figures mean nuthing, hermance aint complaining :-" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan@Trials-uk Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 I didn't know babelfish had a Chinese option! ← Course they do(Y), Use Chinese simp- english(Y) :- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank_rider Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 nice and misleading there. I only had a quick look at two of the tests that are comparisons, and spotted that the scales arent the same. That would have made things a lot simpler to compare!! As steve says FEA can be as much of a hinderance as a help if it is not done in a very careful and considered way. Anywho, time to ride :- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartridge Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 nice and misleading there. I only had a quick look at two of the tests that are comparisons, and spotted that the scales arent the same.← Thats because one has a higher maximum stress, Andy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank_rider Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Thats because one has a higher maximum stress, Andy! ← YEAH I KNOW, BUT IF THEY ARE TRYING TO DO AN APPLES FOR APPLES COMPARISON THEN SURELY HAVING THE SAME SCALE ON BOTH WOULD GIVE A BETTER PICTURE (IN THIS CASE IT WOULD MAKE THE ECHO LOOK EVEN BETTER!!!!) damn caps :angry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Either way though, it seems a bit shit that they're giving %'s for how much 'weaker' the Koxx XTP frame is, which in actual fact a false and misleading one? Surely there's some kind of law that prevents that from happening, otherwise in car adverts (for example), they'd start spouting stuff along those lines (i.e. "Buy our car; it's 75% better than the rest")? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank_rider Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Mark you may well be right, however these things have only been posted on a forum and therefore havent been used in actual direct advertising (unless im missing something here) and so they can say pretty much anything they like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brisa Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 They can compare the two and state strengths and weakenesses but can not blatently state thier frame is better than the XTP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 If they were posted by a member of the Echo company or it's parent company though, it's technically libel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomm Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Bah, who cares. The frame isn't gonna break there because Koxx's design is better than Echo's. It'll break because a weld is dodgy, or due to the fatigue properties of the metal used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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