War - Patriotism

[Trebor]

I'm 100% with Smo on this one. I wonder how the soldiers in Iraq are feeling, as I'm sure not all of them agree with the reasoning behind the war. Where's Phil-anderer when you need him :P

[RicH_87]

You all saying you wouldn't fight a war that tony blair has started? but that wasn't the question was it.

What if (just for an example) Russia decided they'd like to own Britain. You're all saying you would just sit around and do nothing, whilst the russians took over and forced you to live by their rules?

If the was was started by Tony Blair for financial or terratorial gain, then no, i wouldn't volunteer. But if some other nation started attacking us then i'd be right in there on the front line, telling them where to shove it.

Of course war isn't fought like that any more, but if i was 18 in 1939, and the Germans were doing shit that they shouldn't be doing then i'd much rather be fighting than be sat at home like a pansy learning how to speak german.

Would give me somthing interesting to do too.

And those saying you couldn't kill someone for your contry. If some soldier in iraq was trying to kill you, i know for a fact everyone would be able to kill them if they got the chance. Its just natural insitinct to protect yourself. Kill or be killed.

[zoojames]

Of course war isn't fought like that any more, but if i was 18 in 1939, and the Germans were doing shit that they shouldn't be doing then i'd much rather be fighting than be sat at home like a pansy learning how to speak german.

Would give me somthing interesting to do too.

And those saying you couldn't kill someone for your contry. If some soldier in iraq was trying to kill you, i know for a fact everyone would be able to kill them if they got the chance. Its just natural insitinct to protect yourself. Kill or be killed.

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Ok have fun coming back without legs, try riding trials then.

WW... lets face it, you didn't have to be 18, boys as young as 14 got in, its sick. Your an idiot, there are people trained in how to kill people, you get a 10 day tour and a boom stick, have fun blowing your own brains out when your getting pounded 24/7 by artillery shells and have bullets and body bits floating around you!

James :P

[RicH_87]

Ok have fun coming back without legs, try riding trials then.

WW... lets face it, you didn't have to be 18, boys as young as 14 got in, its sick. Your an idiot, there are people trained in how to kill people, you get a 10 day tour and a boom stick, have fun blowing your own brains out when your getting pounded 24/7 by artillery shells and have bullets and body bits floating around you!

James :P

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still better than being a German nazi as far as i'm concerned.

I'd feel like a complete tosser if all my mates went off to fight and i sat at home crying about how dangerous it was.

[Simpson]

If it was ww1 or 2 then i'd definatly go whenever i could, even looking back at the stats. I love my country and if some natzi shite wants to invade my country give me a gun now! dying for you country is a worth death against a fanatical leader, but wouldnt join for politic's

[D-L-B]

If it was ww1 or 2 then i'd definatly go whenever i could, even looking back at the stats. I love my country and if some natzi shite wants to invade my country give me a gun now! dying for you country is a worth death against a fanatical leader, but wouldnt join for politic's

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Err, that is politics, mate.

[Al_Fel]

You'd never catch me fighting for this country full of shits.

[Simpson]

Err, that is politics, mate.

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It is polotics but, the allies set a ammout of rules that germany must abide to, i.e. not going on some land, and a restriced army, they broke these invaded france, belgium and planned an assult on britian, if we leave polotics out of it....... its still good reason to defend your country

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

all wars involve either politics or religion

[D-L-B]

still politics

[nb88]

Why are you all ashamed to live in england and think its such a shit hole? <_< . I'm sure someone will bring up some random immigration problem or something but does that really affect you? just enjoy yourself :unsure: .

I reckon its the bad weather

[RicH_87]

maybe its cos they haven't lived anywhere else, the grass is always greener and all that.

There's only two other 'nations' i would ever want to be a part of, Sweden and Japan. The rest of the world is just pure shite IMO.

England is actually an amazing place to live, with it's freedom, wealth, relative security, freedom of speech. Things we all take for granted but an amazing amount of other contries don't have these benefits.

Imagine being outcast becasue of your opinions and not being able to go where ever you like, or express yourself however you like without being watched and judged, or in some cases imprisoned.

Its easy to take britain for granted becasue it's all we know, but surely you can see and read how aweful other parts of the world are.

I'd fight for england any day of the week, sure there's bits i don't like (immigration, the royal family, lack of respect by the younger generations) but it could be a hell of a lot worse. Guess i'm just a bit sentemental too, i hate seeing things change for the worse.

[Mark W]

But as we all know, the chances of nuclear war are slim. It's more of a detterent than anything else.

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Well, seems like N. and S. Korea are the main people with nuclear arms, and they're hardly going to ship us over there to fight 'em.

Oh yeah, to the "Immigration is shit" people: Fun fact for you.

"Asylum seekers sponge off the government and us all our taxes" etc. is heard quite a lot, but Did You Know™:

Asylum seekers and immigrants put £2.5billion more back into the government/tax system than they take out in the form of benefits?

That's right - they repay all that they take out, and put another £2.5billion in.

So, er, f**k your arguements?

[Tony Harrison]

Makes me wonder how today's British population would behave faced with the threats of 1939. It would all be 'Nah Churchill, stop waging war on 'innocent civilians' blah blah' - think about Dresden, when we deliberately killed 100,000 predominantly innocent civilians.

Jesus Christ, if there were just half the 'do gooders' we have now in 1944 we'd all be either under a tight Nazi regime or an even more oppressive Communist one. Where are your backbones guys? Just cos a few thousand Iraqi's died doesn't mean the war is a lost cause. In the long run Iraq will benefit - just ask the people who actually live there. They have hope now, they didn't before. At least there's a glimmer of light instead of a pitch black tunnel.

If we don't stand up to terrorists and bad guys then we're all doomed. Half the people on this country are too stupid listening to Islamic propaganda and Michael Moore to realise the true threats that our country faces. Not because of the Yanks, not because of Tony Blair, but because there is a large bunch of people in this world who don't want peace, who would disrupt Western Civilisation REGARDLESS of who ran the countries.

See how you'd like living in Nazi Germany, the USSR, Taliban Afghanistan or Saddam-run Iraq. These regimes were toppled - yes people suffered, as they did when the regimes were in place, but at least they're not suffering in vain. Compare the number of people killed in Iraq in the war with the number that 'disappeared' under Saddam. Given the choice, I think you'll find A LOT of Iraqi's are relieved.

[D-L-B]

Asylum seekers and immigrants put £2.5billion more back into the government/tax system than they take out in the form of benefits?

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clever bundling of groups of people there to get the figures.

Besides, that figure means nothing unless you can also give a relative figure for what British born citizens pay in tax compared to what is taken out, in order to draw a proportionate comparison.

Dan

[andyroo]

Well, seems like N. and S. Korea are the main people with nuclear arms, and they're hardly going to ship us over there to fight 'em.

Oh yeah, to the "Immigration is shit" people:  Fun fact for you.

"Asylum seekers sponge off the government and us all our taxes" etc. is heard quite a lot, but Did You Know™:

Asylum seekers and immigrants put £2.5billion more back into the government/tax system than they take out in the form of benefits?

That's right - they repay all that they take out, and put another £2.5billion in. 

So, er, f**k your arguements?

←

Noone hates immigrants because of the whole - they hate them because they see the moochers on the street selling drugs and driving flash cars. You dont see the hard workers, who are the majority of the asylum seekers, who are doctors, engineers, you name it, who are the ones who put the money back in.

So the mooching few give a bad name to the rest, and so others put the money back in that they onced claimed when they needed to get on their own two feet.

The problem is, is that the only ones you really see are the mooching kind who hang around on the street, so thats the stereotype you give them. And asylum seekers are not all from the main Muslim countries either.

[Mark W]

Makes me wonder how today's British population would behave faced with the threats of 1939. It would all be 'Nah Churchill, stop waging war on 'innocent civilians' blah blah' - think about Dresden, when we deliberately killed 100,000 predominantly innocent civilians.

Jesus Christ, if there were just half the 'do gooders' we have now in 1944 we'd all be either under a tight Nazi regime or an even more oppressive Communist one. Where are your backbones guys? Just cos a few thousand Iraqi's died doesn't mean the war is a lost cause. In the long run Iraq will benefit - just ask the people who actually live there. They have hope now, they didn't before. At least there's a glimmer of light instead of a pitch black tunnel.

If we don't stand up to terrorists and bad guys then we're all doomed. Half the people on this country are too stupid listening to Islamic propaganda and Michael Moore to realise the true threats that our country faces. Not because of the Yanks, not because of Tony Blair, but because there is a large bunch of people in this world who don't want peace, who would disrupt Western Civilisation REGARDLESS of who ran the countries.

See how you'd like living in Nazi Germany, the USSR, Taliban Afghanistan or Saddam-run Iraq. These regimes were toppled - yes people suffered, as they did when the regimes were in place, but at least they're not suffering in vain. Compare the number of people killed in Iraq in the war with the number that 'disappeared' under Saddam. Given the choice, I think you'll find A LOT of Iraqi's are relieved.

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True enough. My Dad worked as a training officer for the Iraqi police force (nice and worrying, hearing on the news that "Police forces in Basra have been attacked and many left dead" <_<), and he said that the overwhelming majority ARE happier now Saddam's out. Some of the country's infrastructure is still f**ked, but it's got to be better than being completely oppressed like they were...

Oh, and I guess this time it's slightly different in that in WWII for example, there was a danger of us getting f**ked over by Hitler, and we were all being bombed 'n' shit, whereas now people perceive there to be little threat because the terrorists/enemies aren't all flying over in Stukas dive-bombing London 'n' shit...

clever bundling of groups of people there to get the figures.

Besides, that figure means nothing unless you can also give a relative figure for what British born citizens pay in tax compared to what is taken out, in order to draw a proportionate comparison.

Dan

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I may have worded it incorrectly from the article I read. I wasn't particularly concentrating on the exact wording of my sentence, so sorry about that...

Anyhoo, all I was pointing out was that these "Asylum seekers" who loads of people on here "take all the money out of the country" and f**k us all over 'cos they're taking loads of money out of the tax system are basically wrong, in that they repay all the money they're taking out of the system and add another £2.5billion to it?

Meh...

[RicH_87]

I don't want em here simply for the reason they are asylum seekers and immigrants.

call me narrow minded, call me racist, call me a heartless predudice, i don't care. I wouldn't expect to go live somewhere else just because my country is screwed.

You can't say, the world isn't owned by anyone, so people should be able to go where they like. Yes fair enough if we were all primitive and hadn't created imdependant cultures and even civilisation it'self. But we have, and for me if we have built up borders, they shouldn't be crossed.

The human race can't have it both ways.

I don't even know why i bother having opinions on shit like this anyway. In 60 years (if i'm lucky) i'll be gone and forgottern, just like every other tom, dick and harry who's lived on earth.

[D-L-B]

You dont see the hard workers, who are the majority of the asylum seekers, who are doctors, engineers, you name it, who are the ones who put the money back in.

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I don't think you'll find many asylum seekers working as doctors. Yes, you do get a lot of proffesionals who are immigrant workers.

There is too much ignorance from people who bundle migrant workers in with bogus asylum seekers.

[Mark W]

Noone hates immigrants because of the whole - they hate them because they see the moochers on the street selling drugs and driving flash cars. You dont see the hard workers, who are the majority of the asylum seekers, who are doctors, engineers, you name it, who are the ones who put the money back in.

So the mooching few give a bad name to the rest, and so others put the money back in that they onced claimed when they needed to get on their own two feet.

The problem is, is that the only ones you really see are the mooching kind who hang around on the street, so thats the stereotype you give them. And asylum seekers are not all from the main Muslim countries either.

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There are a bunch of immigrants from Poland around here who are the main problem. They come round trying to sell 'artwork' they've painted, but are trying to scope places out. They went to this one woman's house near here who lives more on the outskirts in a house on here own, and the Polish people drove up to the end of her drive (about 200m from here house), and the one woman got out and walked up to the door, knocked, said about how she was trying to sell her paintings (they get you to read this little card, 'cos apparently their english isn't that great), and the woman said no, and tried shutting the door, but the Polish girl tried forcing her way in <_< Another example just up the road from here was a similar story, but it was a Polish guy who tried forcing his way into a woman's house. Unfortunately for him, her husband (a burly as f**k rugby player) was in, and went up to the guy, physically picked him up and threw him out the door.

Weird...

[Mark W]

I don't think you'll find many asylum seekers working as doctors. Yes, you do get a lot of proffesionals who are immigrant workers.

There is too much ignorance from people who bundle migrant workers in with bogus asylum seekers.

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That does seem to be the main problem. People seem to just call all asylum seekers/immigrants "Illegal Immigrants", and assume they're all as bad as each other.

Ignorance is bliss though I suppose, so maybe we should envy all the people who think like that <_<

[Tony Harrison]

[Rich] You're not being rascist, just nationalist, which isn't a crime (yet...).

What bothers a lot of people (me included) is that our country's services are strained as it is - we can't afford to 'carry' this many people. The money would be better spent elsewhere. Illegal immigrants have more rights than native homeless guys... and I bet I know who causes the most trouble.

Talking of dad's, mine visited the Para's in Folkestone (he's in the TA) and they were saying that in some areas even they (Paras for F's sake!!) are scared to go out because there are scores of young single males running amok. This isn't the whole picture, granted, but I think that you can't just help everybody. It just doesn't work. We're the laughing stock of Europe because Germany and France won't have the 'asylum seekers' - they come here because they know they'll get an easy ride (civil liberties!!!) just like these radical Islamic clerics.

Edited September 12, 2005 by snappel

[D-L-B]

Anyhoo, all I was pointing out was that these "Asylum seekers" who loads of people on here "take all the money out of the country" and f**k us all over 'cos they're taking loads of money out of the tax system are basically wrong, in that they repay all the money they're taking out of the system and add another £2.5billion to it?

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No they don't. For the simple fact that asylum seekers aren't allowed to work.

And I'd be willing to place a strong bet that the article you read was deliberately written in such a misleading way to influence the publics perception of asylum seekers.

Edited September 12, 2005 by D-L-B

[Mark W]

Illegal immigrants have more rights than native homeless guys... and I bet I know who causes the most trouble.

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Er, they wouldn't, because they wouldn't be in the country/claiming benefits or whatever, 'cos it'd show up and they'd be deported? Hence the "illegal" thing? If they're "illegal" they're not going to draw attention to themselves, are they?

Talking of dad's, mine visited the Para's in Folkestone (he's in the TA) and they were saying that in some areas even they (Paras for F's sake!!) are scared to go out because there are scores of young single males running amok. This isn't the whole picture, granted, but I think that you can't just help everybody. It just doesn't work. We're the laughing stock of Europe because Germany and France won't have the 'asylum seekers' - they come here because they know they'll get an easy ride (civil liberties!!!) just like these radical Islamic clerics.

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The clerics can be deported now, so that's going to change. That is pretty f**king ridiculous though. That Horizon-type program showing those Muslim guys outside their mosque in London saying it was great that the buses had been bombed and they were really happy because this country's "full of pigs" pissed me right off.

About the paras - if they were attacked by a younger person/group of them, and they fought back, they'd be right in the shit because they 'should no better' and might even be court-martialled. Even my brother got told off by the police for fighting back when a group of people attacked him, and he was 18 at the time and they were 15. It's worrying for them probably just because they can't fight back, so they're effectively as powerless as anyone else.

[Tony Harrison]

Well that just goes back to the whole law siding with the criminal thing, but don't get me started on that... seems honest hard working tax-paying citizens have the hardest time...