Jason222 Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) Alright, so I just thought about this...I like deng frames, but it seems that all of his frames have something that makes them just imperfect. I've gone through 4 frames in the last year. All have been chinese made, and 2 were deng. I find each has something about it that just plain out turns me off.Echo control short 06:Good features:Excellent frame strengthVery stiffImprovements:375 mm chainstays are too short, should have been between 380-385.Weight.Geometry?GU LE 08:Good Features:High bb heightLightweightGood tire clearenceGood TGS GeoImprovements:These frames are too flexy. The top and down tubes should be joined somewhere to improve stiffness. The rear end is also quite flexy, thicker tubes or a built in booster would be great.They are also on the short side for a TGS/Comp style bike. The reach should be at least 5 mm longer, and head angle should be a bit sharper.Feel free to post your deng bikes, and how you'd like them to be improved. Also feel free to argue with the improvements of others... Edited February 26, 2009 by Jason222 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyb Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Echo control long, higher bb would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara Logan-Price Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 You can't call geometry an imperfection cause its personal preference ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 all the comments on geometry are irrelevant as its a preference so he cant do a frame in every geo possible. the thread is pointless as it will go no where unless your planning on emailing this to deng him self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trials Punk Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) I see that for the Echo, you've mentioned it is stiff but the weight could be improved upon.Then for the GU you've said its lightweight, but too flexy.You want a stiffer frame, you add material in critical areas, which increases weight.Some people actually prefer a "softer" frame.You can't have it all. Edited February 26, 2009 by Trials Punk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley-Wood Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 i think all deng frames are solid imo, you can full on bash them for 2 years easily and no breaking, and if your a smooth rider they last a life time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason222 Posted February 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) You can't call geometry an imperfection cause its personal preference ?Yeah, but geometry is usually based on how it's going to be ridden. So, the echo control short is meant to be a mixture of street and TGS. But the length is a little odd and the CS are too short.all the comments on geometry are irrelevant as its a preference so he cant do a frame in every geo possible. the thread is pointless as it will go no where unless your planning on emailing this to deng him self.No, but he does have quite a few already! Think of this thread as better in general, not better to the individual.I see that for the Echo, you've mentioned it is stiff but the weight could be improved upon.Then for the GU you've said its lightweight, but too flexy.You want a stiffer frame, you add material in critical areas, which increases weight.Some people actually prefer a "softer" frame.You can't have it all.Yes, but the difference in weight is almost 400 grams. There is a point as which a frame could be strong, light, and stiff. Look at most of Koxx frames... Actually, the GU LE could have been much stiffer if the top and down tubes were joined...or if the tubes were welded together in a different way. Edited February 26, 2009 by Jason222 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimpanzyyyy Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 There is a point as which a frame could be strong, light, and stiff. Look at most of Koxx frames...they are stiff and light...but not really that strong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason222 Posted February 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 they are stiff and light...but not really that strong Not really all that weak either. Quite strong for the weight actually. And quite a lot stronger than some of the more recent deng frames to be released (GU ST comes to mind). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Scarlet Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Decent chain tension, disc mount and 4 bolt on the same frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greetings Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I like deng frames, but it seems that all of his frames have something that makes them just imperfect.Same here. All of them are missing something. I think it's the looks. A Deng frame is just differently shaped tubes welded together. A Koxx is the same but with added great paint jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara Logan-Price Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Yeah, but geometry is usually based on how it's going to be ridden. So, the echo control short is meant to be a mixture of street and TGS. But the length is a little odd and the CS are too short.No, but he does have quite a few already! Think of this thread as better in general, not better to the individual.Yes, but the difference in weight is almost 400 grams. There is a point as which a frame could be strong, light, and stiff. Look at most of Koxx frames... Actually, the GU LE could have been much stiffer if the top and down tubes were joined...or if the tubes were welded together in a different way.That's a load of crap yes frames are designed with street,TGS,natural in mind but you cannot comment on there being an "imperfection" in the geometry because it doesn't suit you.And you cannot say the chainstays are too short and its a weird length cause that's how YOU would want it (back to what i said on personal preference) I bet some people regard that frame as perfect for them due to their style or even their size/weight. So geometry cannot be classed as an imperfection unless something is drasticly wrong which makes it hard for it to be ridden for it's purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trials Punk Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) Yes, but the difference in weight is almost 400 grams. There is a point as which a frame could be strong, light, and stiff. Look at most of Koxx frames... Actually, the GU LE could have been much stiffer if the top and down tubes were joined...or if the tubes were welded together in a different way.Yes, thats 400grams more material, which equals a stiffer frame if that 400grams is put in the right places.To be honest, I think the GU is meant to be a lightweight alternative to other frames in their range, also note that the GU has a curved downtube, possibly for clearence which will reduce stiffness.I'm not really up on all the different frames availble for trials these days, but I'm guessing the control is more for street/natural, whilst the GU is aimed more at natural and dare I say it "TGS". Edited February 26, 2009 by Trials Punk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leotrialp Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) Same here. All of them are missing something. I think it's the looks. A Deng frame is just differently shaped tubes welded together. A Koxx is the same but with added great paint jobs. I agree with you, Deng frames was stronger, but in the last years they are weaker...isn`t only the weight, because the new CZAR, weights 2kg and is a lot weaker, I see a lot broken...That's a load of crap yes frames are designed with street,TGS,natural in mind but you cannot comment on there being an "imperfection" in the geometry because it doesn't suit you.And you cannot say the chainstays are too short and its a weird length cause that's how YOU would want it (back to what i said on personal preference) I bet some people regard that frame as perfect for them due to their style or even their size/weight. So geometry cannot be classed as an imperfection unless something is drasticly wrong which makes it hard for it to be ridden for it's purpose.You are wrong, because if I sell you a frame with the geometry of a MTB you would want to kill me because the geometry don´t suit trials, but I sell you a "trials frame"...the frame have to be designed for suit some styles and riders, but deng in the last years do frames with almost the same geo (echo control 09 - 1090wb +30bb 380cs ----- czar 07 - 1095wb + 30bb 385cs ----- zoo pitbull 09 - 1085wb +30bb 380cs --- adamant a1 07 - 1095wb +30bb 375cs) so if you se they are very similar, except the Gu ( 1085wb +60bb 375cs) so you are buying almost the same frame of deng, there is almost no variety, and those frames are weaker, except gu and adamant (i don´t know if the zoo is weak)...I think than deng have to build frames with diferent geo and resistance (deng says than for the 2009 are going to build more frames, we are waiting ), for suit all the riders, because they sell what they want but you have to pay it and...THEY CAN DO FRAMES!!!we don´t...Yes, thats 400grams more material, which equals a stiffer frame if that 400grams is put in the right places.exaclty, see the CZAR, weights a lot for his resistance,but if that weigh was good distribuited, it can be a strong frame... Edited February 26, 2009 by leotrialp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara Logan-Price Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 That's a load of crap yes frames are designed with street,TGS,natural in mind but you cannot comment on there being an "imperfection" in the geometry because it doesn't suit you.And you cannot say the chainstays are too short and its a weird length cause that's how YOU would want it (back to what i said on personal preference) I bet some people regard that frame as perfect for them due to their style or even their size/weight. So geometry cannot be classed as an imperfection unless something is drasticly wrong which makes it hard for it to be ridden for it's purpose.You are wrong, because if I sell you a frame with the geometry of a MTB you would want to kill me because the geometry don´t suit trials, but I sell you a "trials frame"...the frame have to be designed for suit some styles and riders, but deng in the last years do frames with almost the same geo (echo control 09 - 1090wb +30bb 380cs ----- czar 07 - 1095wb + 30bb 385cs ----- zoo pitbull 09 - 1085wb +30bb 380cs --- adamant a1 07 - 1095wb +30bb 375cs) so if you se they are very similar, except the Gu ( 1085wb +60bb 375cs) so you are buying almost the same frame of deng, there is almost no variety, and those frames are weaker, except gu and adamant (i don´t know if the zoo is weak)...I think than deng have to build frames with diferent geo and resistance (deng says than for the 2009 are going to build more frames, we are waiting ), for suit all the riders, because they sell what they want but you have to pay it and...THEY CAN DO FRAMES!!!we don´t...exaclty, see the CZAR, weights a lot for his resistance,but if that weigh was good distribuited, it can be a strong frame...That is clearly what I had already said so no I am not wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leotrialp Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 That is clearly what I had already said so no I am not wrong Then I don´t understand you in that time ...I´m apologize Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trials Punk Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I think what monkeysaredbomb@hotmail.co is trying to say is that when they design a trials bike they try to make it as universal as possible to suit a range of people, rather than sell a bike that is tailored to one person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leotrialp Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 -I love your triton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason222 Posted February 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 That's a load of crap yes frames are designed with street,TGS,natural in mind but you cannot comment on there being an "imperfection" in the geometry because it doesn't suit you.And you cannot say the chainstays are too short and its a weird length cause that's how YOU would want it (back to what i said on personal preference) I bet some people regard that frame as perfect for them due to their style or even their size/weight. So geometry cannot be classed as an imperfection unless something is drasticly wrong which makes it hard for it to be ridden for it's purpose.I would argue that it is drastically wrong, which does make it hard to be ridden for it's purpose. I found it extremely difficult to stay on the rear wheel in a confined space with 375 CS, and it's much more difficult to turn in place as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
middleageman Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) . Edited February 27, 2009 by middleageman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualjoe Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Only the very best riders can answer that one.. the rest of us trick ourselves to thinking that 5mm longer stays are gonna make us pro riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason222 Posted February 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Only the very best riders can answer that one.. the rest of us trick ourselves to thinking that 5mm longer stays are gonna make us pro riders.You don't have to be hermance to notice the geometry in the bike you're riding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Dark Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Only the very best riders can answer that one.. the rest of us trick ourselves to thinking that 5mm longer stays are gonna make us pro riders.It does make a difference to your riding....but, it doesnt mean youre instantly going to be loads better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trials Punk Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 I would argue that it is drastically wrong, which does make it hard to be ridden for it's purpose. I found it extremely difficult to stay on the rear wheel in a confined space with 375 CS, and it's much more difficult to turn in place as well.Its down to preference, I would prefer the chainstays on a bike to be slightly shorter. It feels better for me when I'm getting up stuff. Balancing on the back wheel dosn't bother me, I'm fine with that. Not sure why, but I've always found it easier to turn with shorter chainstays. Yet again, down to preference.You've just got to find a frame that suits your style and preference at the end of the day, the older echos suit me down to the ground. If the chainstay was something around 360, then I would start getting woried about it exiting out of the trials geometry catogery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusevelt Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 There really isn't that much more you can improve on todays geometry, unless your talking better pivoting, tilting, and stablity control on the backwheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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