Matthew62 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) No one? Awesome. Edited July 18, 2011 by Matthew62 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbarr Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Have you tried a mixture of water and antifreeze? There were loads of topics at winter and I'm sure several different people said that antifreeze has lubrication properties in it, therefore stopping the pistons becoming slow or sticky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Wood Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Maguras are a bit of a black art I've found. Theres no particular rhyme or reason why some work and others don't. I've run a water bled magura for about 8 years now and they've all been fine. My current lever is about 5 years old. I use straight up Devon tap water with no fancy antifreeze / DI water or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Another one here with about 5 years of pure tap water bleeds and no problems except a slightly swollen piston earlier in the year. A quick sand got that sorted in no time... I definitely felt the difference in lever feel too. Odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.KYDD Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I re-bleed by brakes roughly every 3-4 months out of rutine. Every time I bleed them I bleed once through with oil to re-lubricate the seals and sort of 'bathe' the system and then bleed through with water again. My brakes are always spot on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I have a theory. Might be a load of bollocks though. Do you think Hard Water http://www.dishwasher-care.org.uk/facts.html could effect maguras? Matthew62 your from London yes? The london area has quite hard water and your having problems. Were as N.wood is from Devon. We have quite soft water and he hasn't had any problems. My theory is that if hard water leaves mineral build-up on kettles and dishwashers (although mostly on the heating elemtents), could it be effecting the maguras in anyway? It would be interesting to know the succuss rates of tap water bleeds in different areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Wood Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I have a theory. Might be a load of bollocks though. Do you think Hard Water http://www.dishwasher-care.org.uk/facts.html could effect maguras? Matthew62 your from London yes? The london area has quite hard water and your having problems. Were as N.wood is from Devon. We have quite soft water and he hasn't had any problems. My theory is that if hard water leaves mineral build-up on kettles and dishwashers (although mostly on the heating elemtents), could it be effecting the maguras in anyway? It would be interesting to know the succuss rates of tap water bleeds in different areas. True, although it can vary in that water from boreholes down here can be equally as hard as London water. You're right though, I used to live in London and we'd have to get a new kettle every 4 months or so due to the calcium build up whereas down here we have none. JD is from the lovely Whyteleafe which should also have pretty hard water so not sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 True, although it can vary in that water from boreholes down here can be equally as hard as London water. You're right though, I used to live in London and we'd have to get a new kettle every 4 months or so due to the calcium build up whereas down here we have none. No equally hard. http://www.southwestwater.co.uk/media/pdf/2/3/Hard_Water.pdf There is one area that gets close. JD is from the lovely Whyteleafe which should also have pretty hard water so not sure... It might not be the cause but it might be a factor. He might just be lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Wood Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 No equally hard. http://www.southwestwater.co.uk/media/pdf/2/3/Hard_Water.pdf There is one area that gets close. It might not be the cause but it might be a factor. He might just be lucky. Yeah thats the SWW boreholes. Boreholes are often drilled to derive a privately owned water supply. The limestone in areas such as Torquay and Plymouth, alongside the chalk deposits in such as Somerset can allow soluable minerals such as calcium to end up in the potable water supply. This means your own water softening measures have to be taken, and some people don't bother. Open-holing a, say, 25m borehole to be cased with 50mm HDPE and a 50mm inline pump can cost as little as £1500 for 'unlimited' water supply, often farmers, estates and those with high water need will do this instead of running off a SWW meter. The SWW supplied water is treated in accordance with strict guidelines for mineral content, water from a borehole in a mateys garden isn't. This is way off topic but as I'm talking about Devon alot of people use private uncontrolled boreholes, wells and springs. I am in agreement with you, it may well be a factor. But thats between 2 people, and if you throw JD in the mix who lives within 20 miles or so of the topic starter the theory kinda goes to pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted July 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) Good point. Edited July 18, 2011 by Matthew62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Wood Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I think Adam Read deduced water made the pistons swell up slightly as nylon absorbs some water. Its not actually to do with the seals. This may be your issue? Slightly oversized from the factory, maybe mine is old and worn down so works well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolver Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Forteh made an emulsion that you could use. Also I seem to remember people saying there's a chemical used by engineers that has the exact properties you'd want in a brake fluid. I can't remember its name though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted July 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) Sounds good. Edited July 18, 2011 by Matthew62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarathal Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Forteh made an emulsion that you could use. Also I seem to remember people saying there's a chemical used by engineers that has the exact properties you'd want in a brake fluid. I can't remember its name though. Suds or something right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Ultimately if you're happy with oil then that's the way to go. Absolutely no idea why your brake doesn't like water though. I'm sure you said you could feel how much lighter my lever feel was, but I might be imagining that. If that was the case, I'd suggest you didn't get nearly enough oil out of the system somehow. From that I'd take a wild guess that some of the return time was being taken by the oil and water swapping places as they obviously don't mix. That's merely theory though, with not much thought behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisboats Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I am living in London, but i actually don't have that hard a supply of water. My kettle is fine after two years of living here. The last time i bleed with water (2 years ago) that was in an area of hard water so could have been a contributing factor. But surely it's strange to have at this present time ran Royal Blood for two years (problem free) then one bleed with water (only once through so there should be royal blood still lub'ing the seals) and in two rides the brake is shit. The lever response is slower i feel (compared to royal blood where it snapped back) but you can very clearly see that when i let go of the lever the lever will retract and then a second or two later the brake will slowly release. As you can imagine this is less than ideal, for well pretty much everything. Gaps are now impossible and it's just disconcerting when riding. I fully acknowledge many people run water problem free, i'm just at a loss as to why whatever i do i'm f**ked, irrespective of where i've got the water from!? The problem is you've got royal blood AND water in there. I've always found a water bleed works best if you get all the gunk from the magura blood out the brake first. I actually took the lever blade off and the piston out and shoved a piece of tissue down there. The crap that came out was unreal. A rather easy way i've found is to mix up some hot (not boiling) water and washing up liquid and pump some of that through a few times with the syringe. Your bleed feels shit because you've still got all the crap in there and you've said it yourself in that the lever response feels slower than with oil. Water should feel really quick and you'll certainly notice the difference, if it doesn't you need to clean it. My best performing brake so far is a good water bleed with a drop of finish line extreme wet lube round the edge of the lever and slave pistons. It feels amazing. I'm just really interested as to why i can't specifically run what most others are doing Also my Magura is about 5 years old so should be pretty worn by now.... You haven't cleaned the insides out properly. Imagine eating chewing gum for 5 years and then having a plate of salad. That one little bit of healthy food won't get past the gum stuck to your insides. Get a colonic and it'll be much better. Mine is the same magura i bought when i first got maguras in like 2004 maybe and it's been bled with water for the majority of that time. My slave prong has snapped off but the bleed is still going strong. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted July 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) Thanks Kris - i'll try that. Edited July 18, 2011 by Matthew62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisboats Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Yeah if i remember i think your lever did feel a bit different, but when i bled mine with water it felt just the same. Kris: The thing is i know i mentioned i left a bit of Royal Blood in there, but that is very much intentional. When i last bled with water, i stripped everything, cleaned all pistons and brake internals, replaced with brand new hosing so no oil at all and there was just no movement what so ever. It was as if the brake had never seen oil in it's life - it was pristinely clean, no gunk anywhere - just 100% pure, clean water. Purely water alone was horrific - just no dice, the shittest of shit you could ever imagine, so i don't agree with the mixture of gunk and water causing the issue. That's why i didn't clean it out this time, hoping that some royal blood would remain around the pistons to lube them - but it t'aint worked. When i bled with water recently all that was coming out was clear water, but i presume their had to be a bit of oil in there still. Given that mine works, i'm gonna go with yours isn't properly clean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted July 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) You're probably right. Edited July 18, 2011 by Matthew62 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Mines full of shit. Works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisboats Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Given your arrogance - i'm not going to listen. The assumption that you know my brake better than me is rather stupid. The fact the memories of cleaning my brake are still firmly etched in my memory with such agonising detail that i can still remember the purity of the newly cleaned brake and the then crushing disappointment when it didn't work, give me absolute undeniable confidence that my brake was about as clean as is humanly possible means i'll take what you said - and not give a shit about it. The retardness of your comment is what strikes me most, as if you're saying that the symptoms of my brake not working are due to remaining royal blood/oil then surely there would be more sufferers here. As do you think everyone goes to such pain-staking lengths to make sure there brake is 100% clean, because you are suggesting the reason your brake works is down to just how clean it is - when i know for a fact that the very reason my brake DIDN'T work was due to just how clean it was, meaning i very much imagine the reason yours DOES work is down to some left-over lubrication. Also i believe nearly everybody here who runs water still has some form of shit in there brake so i'm afraid your comment is null and void. I think it's more a matter of the tolerance between piston and chamber being too close, and a lack of sufficient lubrication...HOWEVER there must be something more as people here are running water fine, but suggesting it's just 'cus i got gunk in it' isn't at all helpful when i've now twice explained this really isn't the case, and it's f**king banal, so go and assert your authority somewhere else, instead of automatically assuming superior knowledge. Haha, you're really on your period today aren't you. You said you hadn't taken all the magura blood out. Magura blood and water feels crap, which is what you described. Flushing the oil out is the easiest and most effective fix for this. There's no presumptions, you wrote that it wasn't fully cleaned out Most people run water through until it comes out clear the other side. If it feels shit they bleed it again and watch more shit come out that's been dislodged. They don't come onto a forum whining and disregarding people who've gotten it to work perfectly. If you want something really accurate i'd look to explaining how plastic parts in the magura swell slightly when bled with water and blah..... but seeing as you're not going to listen there's not much point. I don't have leftover oil from magura blood, but finish line. Bleed it with water, whack some finish line on the seals and your good to go with a great feeling brake. A few months down the line put another drop of finish line on each seal and your set for a few more months of non sticky high speed lever action. For the record, ending a cocky sentence with a is a sign of sarcasm, a joke, or playful banter. Let's not get our knickers in a twist over a single sentence next time hey? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forteh Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I used plain water for ages without any problems, then after about 5 years the slave pistons started getting sticky. A bleed with oil solved it but the lever speed was horrific (using an RB lever which seems to exacerbate the feeling of a slow lever). I put together the original emulsion forumla a couple of years ago and used it until my lever seals finally gave up the ghost. Got the lever resealed and started using the suds (machine coolant) which works very well as its pretty much the same weight as water but with a lubricating component (its a synthetic oil that stays in emulsion with water). Interestingly enough, I have had a slightly slower lever response in the recent warmer weather but never so much as to really cause any difficulties; any stickiness also seemed to free itself up after a few quick strokes. The cause of the sticking could well be gunk in the slave cylinders, without removing the pistons its going to be virtually impossible to clean it all out 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted July 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) Haha, you're really on your period today aren't you. You said you hadn't taken all the magura blood out. Magura blood and water feels crap, which is what you described. Flushing the oil out is the easiest and most effective fix for this. There's no presumptions, you wrote that it wasn't fully cleaned out Most people run water through until it comes out clear the other side. If it feels shit they bleed it again and watch more shit come out that's been dislodged. They don't come onto a forum whining and disregarding people who've gotten it to work perfectly. If you want something really accurate i'd look to explaining how plastic parts in the magura swell slightly when bled with water and blah..... but seeing as you're not going to listen there's not much point. I don't have leftover oil from magura blood, but finish line. Bleed it with water, whack some finish line on the seals and your good to go with a great feeling brake. A few months down the line put another drop of finish line on each seal and your set for a few more months of non sticky high speed lever action. For the record, ending a cocky sentence with a is a sign of sarcasm, a joke, or playful banter. Let's not get our knickers in a twist over a single sentence next time hey? Thanks. Edited July 18, 2011 by Matthew62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dann2707 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 You considered giving it a thorough clean? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisboats Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 If you've got accurate, useful information - why not give it? Because you were being a tit I only mentioned not being thoroughly cleaned because the slave pistons are rather hard to get into. What tends to happen with water in the brake when you've still got a bit of oil left is you'll get a nice sticky grey gunk that coats the insides of the slaves. If you where to take your lever apart after a couple of rides and have a look at the lever spring i'd imagine you'd have the same stuff all over that too. Because the slaves are so hard to clean as you can't get into them there's likely a bit in there you missed. Thats why the hot water and washing up liquid works well as the heat and the washing up liquid both break down any remaining bits of magura blood. If i remember correctly my original bleed with water took 5-6 bleeds over a couple of weeks before it felt better and after each bleed more gunk came out. I'm only mentioning from experience that one thorough clean didn't work for me and i know i ceaned it up to a nice shine in the lever myself too. The thing about the plastic swelling was covered recently in another thread. Most plastics soak up a small amount of water and swell, much in the same way wood does. It's not by much but the tolerances inside a magura are very fine so even a small amount of swelling makes the pistons slightly stiffer. I'll try and find the thread for it. EDIT: Found it, one of the top results for "sticky pistons" http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/topic/163793-using-water-and-got-sticky-pistons/page__hl__sticky+pistons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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