yeah good point you made but its going to be pretty hard to find a steel frame that can have a seat and v brake mounts without going custom. But your exactly right I don't want to waste my money by choosing the wrong geometry. I used to ride a norco moment and that was pretty good for bunnyhops, I think it had a 1010 WB, 400 CS, 0 BB rise. I then got an echo pure 1085 so I don't really have alot of experience with frames. Which is why I need some help with it. I think in terms of WB, 1030 sounds pretty nice not too short. CS probably 385mm, BB rise might go for 20mm, and head angle 72 or 73. Sounds like a shorter ashton justice . Would that be good? or would a even shorter WB be better. Basically I want to be able to bunnyhop, manual and spin like techy stuff but also incorporate some trials into as well. Oh and Mat cheers for the offer but I'm afraid I would have to fly over to be able to try your bike, I'm from Australia.