Riding On Graves.

[MadManMike]

In a sense, you're always walking over somebodies grave.

It's just some of them happen to be endowed with an object and have occurred more recently. Perhaps we should move to space to avoid disrespecting the dead that are underneath us.

All of you who are concerned about that chap in the video, do you consider that perhaps you have a choice, not to find respect/disrespect with somebody riding over a grave? In fact, could you elaborate for me what you mean by respect and disrespect, especially within this context?

Sometimes you raise good points. Not on this occasion.

If I buried a family member and found their gravestone had a bashring mark in it I'd be furious, I fail to see how anyone would not be angry.

[1a2bcio8]

Sometimes you raise good points. Not on this occasion.

If I buried a family member and found their gravestone had a bashring mark in it I'd be furious, I fail to see how anyone would not be angry.

I just said that I wouldn't be. You don't cause harm do the dead person because by definition they don't exist anymore. The idea of disrespect, as far as I can tell, are your ideas about the memory of a person, transplanted into to an object. It's kind of an anthropomorphism - giving to the grave human qualities. However, in this situation, the grave doesn't 'hurt', the dead person doesn't 'hurt', so where's the harm? The problem is only there if you choose it to be. I don't choose it to be so it doesn't bother me. Not that I don't understand where you are coming from - this is a socially loaded/defined mentality, one of which I would have previously shared. But consider that there are probably other cultures that do completely different things with their dead, relating to a distinct lack of concern, like my own, in this regard.

I just don't see the point, for myself, of having these things to be concerned about when they can make no difference to me. I can still remember my dad, regardless of a grave, or regardless of a bashmarked grave (might even be better in that it would add character, as they say). In fact, we could use the grave space for other objects/activities that might benefit humans more so.

Perhaps on some level we're attempting to avoid death by transplanting those qualities that are actually gone, following from the death of a person, into some observable object as though that maintains something of the person?

Edited March 5, 2008 by rowly

[Mark W]

I'm going to assume that when people are mentioning respect, although some of it's probably going to be "Respect for the dead", there's still the respect you can have for how people wish to remember their loved ones? If they went to the time and effort of finding a suitable burial site, creating the headstone design and all that jazz, then paying to have it made, having it installed, and paying to have the person buried there, it suggests that it means a lot to them. If they've invested that much time, money and emotion into something like that that would obviously mean a lot to them, it's not hard to work out that perhaps you could just not ride on there?

You're always "walking over somebody's grave" - true, in a way, but at the same time a dedicated burial ground like that is a completely different kettle of fish.

Do you walk around your home-town/city ripping down any of the memorials people put up for people who've died there (e.g. people putting flowers up to mark where someone was killed)?

EDIT: From reading your post above mine, you seem to have completely missed the point people are getting at. It's the living people are talking about, not the dead.

[spode@thinkbikes]

Sometimes you raise good points. Not on this occasion.

If I buried a family member and found their gravestone had a bashring mark in it I'd be furious, I fail to see how anyone would not be angry.

Exactly. Riding/walking/dancing on somebodys grave (i.e where they are buried) is fine in my book But potentially damaging a grave stone that is designed to last many hundreds of years, and the only thing left on the planet to remind people that they existed, is just wrong. Besides, those things are bloody expensive!

[Simpson]

I often look at graveyards and think "wow, look at the lines", but you have to draw the line somewhere. It's bad enough that what we do is on public property....

+1

I hate how trials riders will stand up to someone who's wall it is and says, "better us doing this than smoking drugs." for you maybe yes, but for their wall.... no! But riding someones grave is downright respectfull, wether there dead or not or whatever.... as said before im sure theres a gazzilion gaps like that, and you have to pick a persons grave... peh

[Smo™]

You'd never see me doing it. There's an awesome war memorial along southsea front which I desperately want to ride, but I never will.

[Revolver]

i might possibl ride on a memorial, but never on an actual grave

[1a2bcio8]

I understand what you are saying Mark but my comments are about the living. I am describing perceptions of which we can chose from. We choose to load meaning into these objects but is doing so necessarily 'good' for us? I think it probably follows superstition (consider egyption mentality) and has been maintained by convention of which some of that superstition still operates, in some sense. Grave robbing was a massive fear in the victorian era because of how important the bodies of the dead were seen to be. Even now, people won't allow for the donation of body parts to save anothers life because people can't bear to imagine, what was their loved ones, being dismembered in some form. We even talk of "disrespecting" a grave or even "disrespecting" the dead. The concept of disrespect is only applicable to a human being. The dead are only ideas and the grave is a stone, neither of which can be disrespected. This is my reason for thinking that people 'project' memories onto graves and perceive them as almost being that person (to some degree). The language usage certainly suggests the delusion of something human or alive within graves. I think a realisation of this allows you to choose a different perception. Seriously, go take a wee and a poo on my dad's grave. This might upset some of my relatives but makes no difference to me. Isn't that perhaps a 'better' perception to have? It means in no way that I don't love the memory of my dad - the best I can do seeing as I can no longer love him - it just means I am able to distinguish a stone, from a memory, from somebody who is no loner here. These days I wouldn't ride on a grave in consideration of other people becoming upset. That doesn't mean I won't make statements about my thinking their getting upset is a choice and probably based on confusion.

But okay, some people may think it helps them deal with the death of a loved one. That's fine, my position though is that ultimately I think this is more of a burden than a cushion. This is my opinion based on my reasoning and experience and I accept total fallibility in the potential of my talking rubbish. I'm not telling anyone how to think though, I'm just offering an alternative way of perceiving. A different "reality tunnel" that might help you feel better.

Let me emphasis one more time though. I really do understand the position of emotionally loading an object with the memory of somebody you loved. I did it with a watch that my dad left me. I just don't hold that viewpoint any longer, I perceive it to be culturally conditioned and of no use to me.

Edited March 5, 2008 by rowly

[Chris Elson]

Corrr some people really getting into this topic, yeah its bad doing it and i wouldnt even think about doing it , but people talking about respect us lot anit got none for some walls we destroy because we were once al beginners and you know what that means, smashed walls , dented and snapped benches?

Edited March 5, 2008 by Chris Elson

[anzo]

Fair enough people saying, 'They're dead so it doesn't matter'...but its not your grave to ride on is it? A gravestone is much more than a block of stone with a name on, its the only phyical thing that the person has left in the world...so why should it be ridden on?

It doesnt matter how old it is; how long would you recommend a grave to be standing for before its deemed rideable? I think this boils down to morals, and it seems that getting the satisfaction of a ride is more important than everyday respect - which is pretty pathetic.

And walking on graves; fair enough you might accidently walk on them in a church, but thats not purposely riding on them.

[Mark W]

Marking graves serves a purpose, it's just that people now load more "weight" emotionally to the act of marking. Even if it is society that's caused that, and even if it's wrong, gapping gravestones isn't going to change that. Even it if could, it'd still be the wrong way to do it.

[spode@thinkbikes]

Hippy Crap

I think you're going a little too deep here and in doing so, have evaded the real issues. Sentimental attachment to objects is human nature. Although these logically solve no purpose, if it helps keep someone mentally stable, where's the harm? We are unfortunately complex beasts, where logic rarely takes precedence.

Part of respect, is learning to respect other peoples opinions, feelings and property. Most other people do attach significance to a grave/gravestone and it is not our place to tell people how they should feel, and we should respect that it is not property of our own. The same goes for riding on people's cars or gardens.

Riding on a public wall is generally a victimless crime and damage is at a minimum, and easily repairable due to the uniquelessness (yes I made that word up) or the brick/cement used. I'm sure if I was on the other side of the argument I could argue as strongly in the other direction - i guess that's empathy for you

Edited March 5, 2008 by Spode

[1a2bcio8]

Fair enough people saying, 'They're dead so it doesn't matter'...but its not your grave to ride on is it? A gravestone is much more than a block of stone with a name on, its the only phyical thing that the person has left in the world...so why should it be ridden on?

It doesnt matter how old it is; how long would you recommend a grave to be standing for before its deemed rideable? I think this boils down to morals, and it seems that getting the satisfaction of a ride is more important than everyday respect - which is pretty pathetic.

And walking on graves; fair enough you might accidently walk on them in a church, but thats not purposely riding on them.

You've completely illustrated my point. A gravestone is not more than a block of stone, rather certain individuals generate meaning with it. That meaning in your case, is that it 'belongs' to the dead person, which I think is impossible and beyond the scope of the word. The reality is that people have feelings about objects which they have chosen to correlate with memories but which they forget that process and allow the memories of individuals once living to get mixed up with the representative object. I think this is the primary reason why people get upset. It's the confusion, rather that a proper understanding of what that object means - a reminder (memory instigation) rather than a container of the dead person. I might be wrong though! Even so, is there still any point in loading emotion into objects? The gravestone will eventually fall apart just like the human body. I sound like a cynic but I'm trying to affirm another way of living by negating this one.

[1a2bcio8]

I think you're going a little too deep here and in doing so, have evaded the real issues. Sentimental attachment to objects is human nature. Although these logically solve no purpose, if it helps keep someone mentally stable, where's the harm? We are unfortunately complex beasts, where logic rarely takes precedence.

Part of respect, is learning to respect other peoples opinions, feelings and property. Most other people do attach significance to a grave/gravestone and it is not our place to tell people how they should feel, and we should respect that it is not property of our own. The same goes for riding on people's cars or gardens.

Riding on a public wall is generally a victimless crime and damage is at a minimum, and easily repairable due to the uniquelessness (yes I made that word up) or the brick/cement used. I'm sure if I was on the other side of the argument I could argue as strongly in the other direction - i guess that's empathy for you

I never told anyone how to feel. I always make sure to include the fact that I am putting forward an opinion. I am offering an alternative viewpoint, that is all.

With regards to human nature, well, that is whatever we make it and other cultures don't make use of sentimentality in the way we do. I believe that we have boundaries within which we can come to perceive the world without the need of such death rituals - I think they are motivated by emotions that, ultimately, make us less happy. Do we really need sentimentality? It doesn't really work with me and to be honest, without it, I like the world and other people in general, a whole lot better.

[Simpson]

I can't even understand where your coming from.... I mean your using a lot of long words and speaking about history and such forth but.... Its just something you cant do, i mean theres no reason why you dont just wander up and piss in a strangers mouth.... but you just dont. Im sure you can ride graves, but wether you should or not is an easy answer.... no

Gravestones are expensive and represent the previous existance of someone else's life.... Not like they can say anything or fight back

[anzo]

You've completely illustrated my point.

I have? The only bits of your comments I can understand, I tend to disagree with.

It sounds like a good, intelligent view point, but written by a schizophrenic with 3 keyboards.

[Rich Pearson]

Its just something you cant do, i mean theres no reason why you dont just wander up and piss in a strangers mouth.... but you just dont.

Why not?

[Simpson]

Why not?

Exactly my point! just because a person cant fight back isn't what makes it right or wrong

[0zzy]

id let some one ride on my grave

[PaRtZ]

id let some one ride on my grave

thats because you're like 14 and you've got a long way to go until you actually get to the point where you may think about your grave.

Why do people post long posts? I really cba reading them. But I wouldn't do it at all, and I think as JT said they weren't even that big Maybe 10ft gaps you'd still get a "oooh thats a bit naughty on graves but fricking awesome" response

I agree with rich's brutal post, its a fair point, but just cant help but feel its a bit too brutal

[munkee]

doesnt bother me really to be honest wouldnt be my first place to go for a ride though

[Tomm]

I'm with Rowly on the idea that people rather pointlessly load an object (in this case a gravestone) with emotion, it's certainly not something I would do. But equally I know that those people don't think it's a stupid idea, and they're perfectly entitled to their opinions. And at the end of the day, riding on graves is not going to win you any friends and it's a bit unnecessary.

I used to do it all the time, it never even crossed my mind that it was a bad thing. In Lancaster the graveyard is a great place to ride. Quiet and out of the way, usually sunny, lots of lines. I guess perhaps I've grown up a bit and now I'm not so rebellious and have a bit more empathy. I probably wouldn't do it now. Still, it's not as bad as one of my friends who lost his virginity on a gravestone!

What if there was no one watching? What they don't know can't hurt them? Would you feel bad then, knowing that you weren't causing any living person any harm? Personally I'd probably be ok with it...

[sidehop]

I wouldn't.

For the simple reason:

I wouldn't sombody to ride on mine, therfor i shouldn't ride on others.

[steve@banbury-trials]

id let some one ride on my grave

cheers ozzy,i'll be over later

[sfboy]

Your own feelings on whether you'd be bothered if someone rode across your/a family members grave don't come into the argument about whether it is right or wrong or not. If it matters to the family of the people whose grave you're riding over then that's the issue, and judging by responses on here, it clearly does matter.

A grave is, to many people, a symbolic earthly representation of someone who is no longer of this earth. By appreciating the etymology of expressions such as 'dancing on someone’s grave' you would understand why it is a deeply disrespectful thing to do for this very reason.

What angers me more and more in modern society is the increasingly solipsistic existence people are choosing to lead. Some would put this down to the demise of religion, but religion has been the cause of many ills too. I am agnostic, yet believe I live a morally just life, perhaps I am not as charitable as I should be, but I have not slipped into the lowest-common-denominator selfishness that seems so pervasive in an alarming number of people today. Don’t get me wrong, I am not acting out of altruism, I feel good when I feel as though I am being kind, considerate, social, etc. I also believe that if karma does exist it is bestowed on those who do deserve it, and have earned it.

I don’t prescribe we should all live like saints, but who benefits from acting like a jerk to others?