Kit Not Distributed In The Uk

[Oldskooltrials]

What about Zumbi cycles , they make 2 trials frames and it looks like they'll do custom geo ?

[super]

This - but not quite as you said. I don't know all the ins and outs and history behind the 'conflict', but we once got some ZHI stuff in stock and were told that we wouldn't be getting any more Echo stuff if the ZHI parts didn't disappear off the site...

Are you sure? This doesn't sound at all like the way the chinese do business.

[Greetings]

There's serious tension between Echo and Zhi. Then again Zhi doesn't seem to take European dealers too seriously which you will notice once/if you get a shipment from them.

The problem with Zhi is that their components are mostly re-branded OEM products which Echo developed in the past. Ever since Echo started making parts in their own back yard, Zhi cannot just go and buy the same product and put their logo on. I personally have a low regard for Zhi, even their own designs like frames aren't well thought out, with numerous issues a rider might encounter when building the bike up.

Having seen what Echo is now doing in China, I'm pretty sure that their main goal is put Zhi out of business by taking over the whole trials market (which Zhi had a very big share in up until recently). Frankly, I'm not surprised and at the end of the day, the average trials rider will benefit from this most of all.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Greetings

[dirt jumper jake]

even their own designs like frames aren't well thought out, with numerous issues a rider might encounter when building the bike up.

This, my old ZHI frame was appauling compared to my current rockman, none of the brake mounts lined up whenever you tried to tention the chain, the cranks hit the slave cylinders as the seat stays stuck out too far + several other things.

Have you thought about stocking monty? as tarty dont seem to have as much monty stuff as other european shops do...

[forteh]

Pretty much sums up how about 90% of people in trials go about business

[ogre]

Have you thought about stocking monty? as tarty dont seem to have as much monty stuff as other european shops do...

i thought monty stuff just ended up over priced when you brought it into the uk... and theres not alot of monty stuff really worth buying imo only their bars and tyres, you can get cheaper stronger stuff elsewhere usually.

[Andeee]

Lets get a zhi dealer end of discussion... Its very rare ive ever seen anyone on the forum come across bad things about them... Beats dengs wank products that are made of cheese i suppose.

[Azarathal]

I love my Zhi frame but it isn't the best build quality.

The toptube / headtube gusset is off center and one maggy slave can be all the way pushed out in the mounts and the other is half pushed in due to the chain stays being welded one higher than the other.

Never caused and issues though, going rear disk as soon as my pads / adapter / rim arrive so it should matter even less.

[Mark W]

Have you thought about stocking monty? as tarty dont seem to have as much monty stuff as other european shops do...

Have you seen the prices of their stuff? Also, there's not quite the same level of Monty following here compared to in mainland Europe. If I was a trials shop on the continent I'd be pretty keen on stocking Monty just because a lot of people would buy it just because "it's Monty".

i thought monty stuff just ended up over priced when you brought it into the uk... and theres not alot of monty stuff really worth buying imo only their bars and tyres, you can get cheaper stronger stuff elsewhere usually.

It's not just expensive "when you bring it into the UK" - it's pretty damn expensive everywhere. If you compare the prices of their bikes and frames with similar quality products they're pretty high even in Spain. Think their prices for their components have gone up quite a bit for 2011 too. Their bars, for example, are fairly pricey compared to what they used to be (when they were still more expensive than everything else out there). Seem to remember it working out that their 'normal' aluminium bars were the same sort of price as most other companies carbon bars.

[J.KYDD]

E-mail has been pinged off to ZHI.

We are not expecting a quick reply but lets see where it goes

[Scoox]

Lets get a zhi dealer end of discussion... Its very rare ive ever seen anyone on the forum come across bad things about them... Beats dengs wank products that are made of cheese i suppose.

Both products have their pros and cons, it's just that Echo innovate (e.g. spanish bottom bracket, integrated chain tensioner, etc) and Zhi are just running behind copying everything the competition does. And usually copies are of lower quality because the copied design is not fully understood or inadequate manufacturing techniques are used. Therefore Zhi products look good but are not necessarily good. The quality of Echo products is improving, and some of the parts they used to outsource are not being manufactured in-house, which means we will see faster product development. If you have any design suggestions you can even email them to Echo and they will reply. I (and probably others) emailed Echo about considering wider hub flange spacing and they took it on board for the new TR hubs. There was a problem with my frame and they replaced it immediately.

[Scoox]

Have you seen the prices of their stuff? Also, there's not quite the same level of Monty following here compared to in mainland Europe. If I was a trials shop on the continent I'd be pretty keen on stocking Monty just because a lot of people would buy it just because "it's Monty".

It's not just expensive "when you bring it into the UK" - it's pretty damn expensive everywhere. If you compare the prices of their bikes and frames with similar quality products they're pretty high even in Spain. Think their prices for their components have gone up quite a bit for 2011 too. Their bars, for example, are fairly pricey compared to what they used to be (when they were still more expensive than everything else out there). Seem to remember it working out that their 'normal' aluminium bars were the same sort of price as most other companies carbon bars.

Monty stuff is cheese. I think they'll just retire after the M5. I mean, seriously, what next, a paper bike? We have reached a point where trials bikes can't get much better. The lightest bikes are almost too weak. Titanium could be the next big thing, or at least 7075 alu frames. But carbon fibre... not for me thanks. In terms of geometry nothing is going to change much.

All brands are rushing to bring out new models each year. Different paint job, slightly different geo, cut-outs in different places, etc. But essentially it's all the same, just different flavours to suit all tastes. We have reached a point where new bikes are not necessarily better than older models. Now more money doesn't necessarily buy you a better bike. Just a different bike.

I think it's fair to say that most of us don't buy a new frame because we love to have the latest model--we usually buy it to replace a broken one. And in the world of trials everything eventually brakes, so in my opinion if a part is already well designed, there is no need for Koxx, Monty or whoever to alter the design it and possibly f**k it up. Things like the Echo Urban forks which are very popular haven't changed much, and people still buy them because they do a pretty good job.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Scoox

[old'scoolfool]

i'd hardly call tarty cheap, they have a monopoly on the uk market so can charge whatever they want, you can get pretty much every frame on their site upto £100 cheaper even with import cost so if SJS stock pretty much the same but charge a couple of quid less they can still make really good business

[Skoze]

A. nice bump

B. the thing with Tarty is, everything's 100% legit and UK based with real strong ties to every company they stock. If you had a warranty issue, do you really wanna be sending frames back across europe? I'd go for the Tarts every time just for the service and expertise they have, you really can't do better.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Skoze

[JD™]

Monty stuff is cheese. I think they'll just retire after the M5. I mean, seriously, what next, a paper bike? We have reached a point where trials bikes can't get much better. The lightest bikes are almost too weak. Titanium could be the next big thing, or at least 7075 alu frames. But carbon fibre... not for me thanks. In terms of geometry nothing is going to change much.

All brands are rushing to bring out new models each year. Different paint job, slightly different geo, cut-outs in different places, etc. But essentially it's all the same, just different flavours to suit all tastes. We have reached a point where new bikes are not necessarily better than older models. Now more money doesn't necessarily buy you a better bike. Just a different bike.

I think it's fair to say that most of us don't buy a new frame because we love to have the latest model--we usually buy it to replace a broken one. And in the world of trials everything eventually brakes, so in my opinion if a part is already well designed, there is no need for Koxx, Monty or whoever to alter the design it and possibly f**k it up. Things like the Echo Urban forks which are very popular haven't changed much, and people still buy them because they do a pretty good job.

You could basically have said the same thing about 5 years ago. In fact, people were, and if you look at kit from 5 years ago you'll see how very wrong you could potentially be.

[old'scoolfool]

A) nice bump

the thing with Tarty is, everything's 100% legit and UK based with real strong ties to every company they stock. If you had a warranty issue, do you really wanna be sending frames back across europe? I'd go for the Tarts every time just for the service and expertise they have, you really can't do better.

Yeah i would as i get most frames in 2-3 days and i also have great communication with the people from various countries so would be fine sending products back but trials warranties are pretty mute. Anyway that wasn't my point it was that if they can sell frames £100 cheaper another uk distributor could sell them for £50 cheaper and still make a profit

Edited March 31, 2012 by old'scoolfool

[Mark W]

they have a monopoly on the uk market so can charge whatever they want

That isn't the case. We've had complaints made about us both from other trials shops and trials manufacturers for selling things too cheaply. For example, one international trials shop wanted us to sell the Echo Lite, Trial and Pure full bikes for well over £1k (I can't remember the exact price they mentioned as it was a while ago). As a result, we're pretty much tied to selling everything for the manufacturer's RRP. That isn't always the case though - there's a particularly popular product we sell that we have to charge way less than the RRP is because it's doubtful anyone would want to pay that much.

There are plenty of reasons that other overseas companies can charge less than us for stuff - prices here instantly going to be higher thanks to a 20% VAT rate. For a frame, that's a reasonable chunk of money. Other shops who aren't using the same sorts of shipping systems as us can also declare things as a gift and basically lie on customs documents so you don't have to pay any duty or anything like that. That's all well and good for the time being, but once their business increases to where they're using actual accounts with firms it becomes impossible to do that. With - for example - the way our system works with sending stuff abroad using FedEx, we couldn't do it even if we wanted to.

For a lot of the frames we sell, I doubt that another UK-based shop would be able to sell them for much less and make any sort of profit. Just because you can buy one frame from some guy in China for £X amount doesn't mean a shop can, especially if they're buying in a reasonable quantity of them. Having to make enough on frame sales to cover the original cost price of the frame, the cost of transporting it from wherever it's being sold to your own shop and the cost of duty on top of that (to put it into perspective, the costs for delivery and customs on one of our Echo orders last year was well over £10,000), the cost of having to have them stored somewhere (assuming it's a legitimate business and not just a half-arsed Facebook/"Out-of-my-bedroom" 'business') and all the other associated costs of having premises - not to mention (again) the VAT they'd have to charge. If stuff arrives damaged or un-sellable from a manufacturer that's something else that also needs to be factored in, plus any other 'issues' along those lines. Basically - you can't associate the prices involved in one-off transactions with a random person half-way across the world with the way that pricing and costs work for a shop.

[old'scoolfool]

That isn't the case. We've had complaints made about us both from other trials shops and trials manufacturers for selling things too cheaply. For example, one international trials shop wanted us to sell the Echo Lite, Trial and Pure full bikes for well over £1k (I can't remember the exact price they mentioned as it was a while ago). As a result, we're pretty much tied to selling everything for the manufacturer's RRP. That isn't always the case though - there's a particularly popular product we sell that we have to charge way less than the RRP is because it's doubtful anyone would want to pay that much.

There are plenty of reasons that other overseas companies can charge less than us for stuff - prices here instantly going to be higher thanks to a 20% VAT rate. For a frame, that's a reasonable chunk of money. Other shops who aren't using the same sorts of shipping systems as us can also declare things as a gift and basically lie on customs documents so you don't have to pay any duty or anything like that. That's all well and good for the time being, but once their business increases to where they're using actual accounts with firms it becomes impossible to do that. With - for example - the way our system works with sending stuff abroad using FedEx, we couldn't do it even if we wanted to.

For a lot of the frames we sell, I doubt that another UK-based shop would be able to sell them for much less and make any sort of profit. Just because you can buy one frame from some guy in China for £X amount doesn't mean a shop can, especially if they're buying in a reasonable quantity of them. Having to make enough on frame sales to cover the original cost price of the frame, the cost of transporting it from wherever it's being sold to your own shop and the cost of duty on top of that (to put it into perspective, the costs for delivery and customs on one of our Echo orders last year was well over £10,000), the cost of having to have them stored somewhere (assuming it's a legitimate business and not just a half-arsed Facebook/"Out-of-my-bedroom" 'business') and all the other associated costs of having premises - not to mention (again) the VAT they'd have to charge. If stuff arrives damaged or un-sellable from a manufacturer that's something else that also needs to be factored in, plus any other 'issues' along those lines. Basically - you can't associate the prices involved in one-off transactions with a random person half-way across the world with the way that pricing and costs work for a shop.

fair point but neon/yabaa/echo mainly must be charging you guys way over the top even after VAT simply because of its popularity here i imagine which does explain some prices but i understand from what you have said that it would be the same for any uk legit uk dealer and renders my point useless haha

[Mark W]

I don't think it's a case of us being "charged way over the top", I think it's just differences in currencies, selling laws and a few other factors that mean in China it's possible to buy stuff really, really cheaply. That's basically why there was a load of cheap, badly set up Echo complete bikes flooding the market at one point last year as people seemed to realise that it was possible to buy a complete (but unassembled) Echo bike in China for a hell of a lot cheaper than anywhere else in the world. The re-sellers in China then sold to "enterprising" individuals elsewhere in the world, who then sold them for a tidy profit by basing their prices on whatever shops in their country sold full builds for. That's also why there were a load of random Echo frames being re-sold with certain bits and pieces fitted (e.g. Pure SL frames with Ti BBs as standard as they'd just been stripped down from complete bikes in China then sold on for a profit as an aftermarket frame), and other parts only found on the complete bikes.

[Scoox]

I don't think it's a case of us being "charged way over the top", I think it's just differences in currencies, selling laws and a few other factors that mean in China it's possible to buy stuff really, really cheaply. That's basically why there was a load of cheap, badly set up Echo complete bikes flooding the market at one point last year as people seemed to realise that it was possible to buy a complete (but unassembled) Echo bike in China for a hell of a lot cheaper than anywhere else in the world. The re-sellers in China then sold to "enterprising" individuals elsewhere in the world, who then sold them for a tidy profit by basing their prices on whatever shops in their country sold full builds for. That's also why there were a load of random Echo frames being re-sold with certain bits and pieces fitted (e.g. Pure SL frames with Ti BBs as standard as they'd just been stripped down from complete bikes in China then sold on for a profit as an aftermarket frame), and other parts only found on the complete bikes.

I got my bike directly from Echo because I live in China. The whole bike costs about 200 GBP. "wow, that's neat!" you might think, but when you buy a bike this way you are pretty much on your own. I found they were problems with the bike and I had to return several parts to the factory to be exchanged, and then I also wanted to swap some of the standard parts with better parts. In total it's taken me several months to get the bike ready (buying from independent on-line shops in China is a nightmare, they advertise stock they don't have and often sell fake goods e.g. Avid brakes, helmets, etc which from Tarty would be 100% genuine i.e. no hassle). Tarty would have been able to get me up and running in a under a week including shipping because they have stock available and expertise. I think this is also included in the price, and frankly in hindsight it would have been money well spent.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Scoox

[Scoox]

Also note that at the moment frames and forks sold in mainland China are lower grade. This is because manufacturers are aware that the big bucks are abroad because the trials market is relatively small in China, so naturally their top priority is to keep the big customers happy by giving them the highest quality parts they produce. Therefore if you buy from a non-official retailer you might find your brake mounts and/or dropouts are not square and/or the frame is scratched. I had all of the these problems and luckily I was able to have the frame swapped directly by Echo, however when you buy from some dude off Facebook nobody is going to take care of you if you get a bad product.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Scoox

[Greetings]

the trials market is relatively small in China

Is this a fact or just something you believe to be true?

[TommyBrew]

Thing is if I was to buy directly from echo, being in the Uk, I wouldn't have a clue where to get parts or bikes from? The website is it bit basic. Seems like Tarty is the only way we can actually get hold of trials parts? In a good way obviously

[Scoox]

Thing is if I was to buy directly from echo, being in the Uk, I wouldn't have a clue where to get parts or bikes from? The website is it bit basic. Seems like Tarty is the only way we can actually get hold of trials parts? In a good way obviously

The information is on the website but it's in Chinese because they only sell directly to local residents. You need to have an account with the Chinese equivalent of Paypal and you also need a Chinese bank account. That or someone in China who is willing to help you buy one. Of course shipping one bike to say the UK is going to cost a lot of cash and there might be tax. In addition, if you have any problems it's going to be a headache to deal with (think sending the frame back to China). Official distributors are there to make our life a lot easier.

[Scoox]

Is this a fact or just something you believe to be true?

It is something I believe to be true based on my observations:

• 
  
  
• Echo sell directly to individual local customers. Considering the population of China (over 1.3 billion), and assuming all Chinese trials bike brands being equally popular in China, if the biketrials market was big in China Echo would be pretty busy answering phones and shipping orders, but they've only got 3 or 4 people answering the phones (I called several times and usually the same person answers the phone and deals with my query).
  
• Echo only has one official Echo distributor in China, which retails both online and from an inconspicuously tiny shop tucked away in a residential alley in Beijing which also sells MTB and DH kit to stay profitable.
  
• A lot of people here who ride expensive bikes don't know what a trials bike is or do but have never seen one. This includes bike store staff.
  
• Other than at a cycling event, where I saw 5 trials riders, I haven't seen any trials riders anywhere in the past 3 years since I came to China (but I have seen quite a few Chinese guys on skateboards and BMXs.
  
• There are a few good trials riders in China but in general the level is very basic compared with Europe.
  
• Most people here wouldn't spend more than 1000 Yuan on a bike because life is not easy here. The average Chinese worker works very hard or long hours and earns little, for example 60p an hour working in Mc Donalds. Renting a room starts at about £70/month in a shared house in the city where I live, more in Beijing. So basically expensive bikes are viewed as "a sport for the rich", and most people here are not rich.
  

Edited April 3, 2012 by Scoox