Mark W Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 ´mm sure you´ll say something about wages here and stuff, Correct - I'd also mention shipping from the factory, duty and taxes, company overheads, the tooling costs you mentioned before (bearing in mind the numbers for production aren't near what you were mentioning about Trek before), and all the other things that go into making something go from being an initial design to a product in someone's hand. There's also going to be a profit margin in there somewhere, but I don't think it's going to be as big as you either think or are implying it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamilyBiker Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) i hope so.really.hey that was a pretty cool discussion,proves its still possible in here Edited November 19, 2013 by FamilyBiker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 sorry guys,but do you all just want to tell me that one of 100+ frames cant be produced at a price a handmade one i own was? theres a whole industrial city bigger than any capitol in western europe specialized on bicycles Different product, different design, different materials, different processes, different finishes, different graphics, different distribution system, different costs for the company (not strictly in materials, but what do you think Marino's liability insurance is like compared to a company like Inspired?)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HippY Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) as far as I am aware, Ali C makes the wheel, and I assume he lives here, not in Taiwan. Let assume that he works for minimal wage (khhm) that is £6. That should be 6 times more than a usual worker earn in Taiwan, or much much expensive than a machine that assemble x thousand wheels per day. I reckon the main difference between Marino and Inspired is that Inspired makes pre-set frames ( Fourplay, Skye and so on with a geo) in high quality but not in a big ( like 1000s) quantity ( if I am wrong please tell me) so it justify the price. And these bikes are not for everyone, just like the £3000 Downhill bikes are not for beginners, although they can use them as well, but they are desinged for professional level riders, so does these bikes. And as in everything, high level, professional and racing stuffs are expensive, but good quality. ( I tried to not make bad opinions aboud Marino, and I dont have, because I have never had a Marino frame, but as far as I heard he is not a high end framemaker.) (* did you notice that ClericGTM made a good discussion? but not with the proper tools, thats true) Edited November 19, 2013 by UKHippY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamilyBiker Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 fair point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ТrialsRider Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 >different materials Magic 4130 CrMo made from powder of the unicorn horn? Design? What? 7 CrMo Tubes that costs almost nothing? The only things to acquit price that high is: 1) Extra-extra-extrea-super-ultra-superiour cosmic NASA level designing and quality control. 2) Extra-super-duper-mega testing with paying salary to riders for testing. Testing, RnD, taxes, you think other companies that produce frames don't pay for all that? Good BMX frames are cheap and superior strong. CHEAP and STRONG. The main features of mass street-trials frames are: 1) Reliability 2) Geo Even "chineese-shit" because frames that costs 170 pounds are pretty strong and reliable. And you can't beat physics. So Arcade may be just top frame like other top street/dirt frame in terms of reliability. Arcade can't be better, because of physics(metal fatigue) lol. Geo is something you need to develope/try/change/try - yes, it can be pretty costly, but this process takes place in developing of any produced frame in the world. About small quantity - pfff bull****. Especially for company that have so much experience, established ties with factory and their own RnD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 I know it's not 100% relevant to this thread in particular, but seeing as there's a lot of talk about money in here - it's worth also bearing in mind what the company you're giving your money to are doing with it. Unlike quite a few other companies out there, Inspired are at least re-investing in the trials scene itself, such as giving a fairly large amount of prizes to GETcreative each year (and Section 01), supporting cool events like Dressler Camp and Tarty Days, supporting forums like this/OTN, giving up time and money to help provide bikes for things like the Street Light Sessions (which directly led to people getting themselves a trials bike and riding trials having not done it before) and the various events Red Bull put on (e.g. the Imaginate Warehouse session) as well as a few other things I've totally forgotten about... I'm not going to pretend that that's all entirely altruistic as arguably it's all still promotion for them and should theoretically help out in the future, but it's still something that not many in the trials world are doing and overall it still helps push things on a bit for the trials scene in general. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamilyBiker Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 agree,totally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 Good BMX frames are cheap and superior strong. CHEAP and STRONG. You might want to check out BMX forums a bit more and see the amount of people complaining about frames breaking often, which is why a lot of BMX frames are now getting progressively heavier to try and reassure people that they're strong (despite there being about 4-5 years where they kept trying to save weight, leading to products breaking more often). Older, overbuilt BMXs were definitely stronger, but modern BMX frames aren't necessarily stronger any more because riders wanted lighter stuff. I've cracked more BMX frames (fairly high end ones too that around the same as or more than an Element frame) than I've cracked trials frames, and snapped more BMX bars (again, high end ones) than I've snapped trials bars. In all honesty I can't even really be bothered going over the other stuff in your post 'cos there's pretty much no point. Every time you ask why stuff costs what it costs you just disregard it and complain about something else. You don't like the price of the Arcade and can't understand it - fine, that's OK. No-one's forced to buy one, so don't worry about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HippY Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 >different materials Magic 4130 CrMo made from powder of the unicorn horn? Design? What? 7 CrMo Tubes that costs almost nothing? The only things to acquit price that high is: 1) Extra-extra-extrea-super-ultra-superiour cosmic NASA level designing and quality control. 2) Extra-super-duper-mega testing with paying salary to riders for testing. Testing, RnD, taxes, you think other companies that produce frames don't pay for all that? Good BMX frames are cheap and superior strong. CHEAP and STRONG. The main features of mass street-trials frames are: 1) Reliability 2) Geo Even "chineese-shit" because frames that costs 170 pounds are pretty strong and reliable. And you can't beat physics. So Arcade may be just top frame like other top street/dirt frame in terms of reliability. Arcade can't be better, because of physics(metal fatigue) lol. Geo is something you need to develope/try/change/try - yes, it can be pretty costly, but this process takes place in developing of any produced frame in the world. About small quantity - pfff bull****. Especially for company that have so much experience, established ties with factory and their own RnD. just an example: in my hometown there are minimum 5 WTP BMXs ( and it was a small town), whereas I reckon there were less than 5 Inspired in the country As you see, BMX is a popular sport, very popular. It has its own style, culture and main charachters. Where trials and especially street trials is very small and young. There is only a several popular names ( Danny MacAskill, Martyn Ashton sadly is not that famous as Dan), only a handful of people ride( compared to any kind of biking sport) and it does not have that kind of culture or style that would grab the masses, as in BMX. What I want to say it, that there are loads of BMX companies, who make their frames in Taiwan with machines and they can sell in very very large quantity. Whereas Inspired sells for a small audience, but top quality items. you can argue with it if you want, but in general this is most of the riders opinion, whereas I am not sure if a £170 BMX frame is a competition/high level frame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ТrialsRider Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 About geo, Mark, how Arcade rides(feels) in compare to alu Inspireds (Your black 2011 fourplay for example)? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivian-Trial Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ТrialsRider Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) Screen Shot 2013-11-19 at 17.01.15.png Call your mom and complain about bad Russians(FamilyBiker are Russian too?), lol. Edited November 19, 2013 by ТrialsRider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 About geo, Mark, how Arcade rides(feels) in compare to alu Inspireds (Your black 2011 fourplay for example)? Better in every way in terms of geometry, and also in terms of feel. I didn't really buy into the hype of 'steel is real' and all that stuff people used to come out with when they talked about Leeson/Curtis frames, but they do just feel different, in a nice way. Ben Rowlands is also testing a steel frame from Inspired, and to quote him: I had the same geometry as this frame when I had my JAF, aside from a steeper head angle, and can therefore confirm its awesomeness. If you're looking to develop the more streety side of your riding this will help you do so. Not only that but the dampening of the steel of these frames is very rewarding. It makes for a much smoother ride. That status wasn't actually anything to do with you or FamilyBiker (who's German). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willeyeam Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 The title says it, i'm stuck between chosing two diferent bikes. Now both have been released are you closer to picking one of them? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 Framekits are out early December, according to the Inspired Facebook page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 Framekits are out early December, according to the Inspired Facebook page. Reckon it'll be the same sort of time for components.... i.e. bars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 Didn’t Ali say that, maybe back in the day, when steel frames were larger (XC frames and the like), in terms of the size of the triangles, that steel was slightly more forgiving because of the flex but because the Arcade was so small, the difference in feel compared to Alu frames was negligible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 He also quantified that by saying that he frequently rides with his stem not lined up and stuff like that because he doesn't really 'feel' bikes like that. He also rode with his Premium 48-spline cranks not actually lined up with each other for quite a while without noticing - I could barely pedal it because it just felt f**king weird. That's also why I quoted Ben... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJsy Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 I can't be bothered to read through the previous pages so sorry if anyone's mentioned this but has anyone ever tried getting a 24" cruiser http://cdn.bmx.transworld.net/files/2009/02/24/jc-cruiser_01.jpg and converting that into a streety trials bike? I know you have the obvious issue of brake mounts etc but for the guys that ride 24"s brakeless, would it not work with lower gearing and a trialsy stem/bar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 I am not the best example though as I don't tend to notice much (running my levers at different angles, my cranks one spline out and my stem twisted without noticing). Snaked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 Reckon it'll be the same sort of time for components.... i.e. bars? No idea sorry, I only knew about the framekits 'cos I saw the post on FB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ТrialsRider Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 Guys, what do you think about Ozonys Styl? Especially about geo? 995 370 +10 71.5° (especially about this) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 The 71.5° was a typo. They're actually 73°. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJsy Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 Guys, what do you think about Ozonys Styl? Especially about geo? 995 370 +10 71.5° (especially about this) I think if it allows you to ride with as much style as the french then it's definitely worth every penny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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