TartyBikes Open Trial - Shipley Glen, 14th September

[AdamR28]

I wonder if the more competitive comp guys will like it?

Hopefully! http://andreiburton.com/urban-trial-in-cahors-france/

The Cahors trial has grown massively in the last 3 years and had 91 entries last time: http://www.tribalzine.com/?+Resultats-de-l-Openfree-de-Cahors+

[Mark W]

I wonder if the more competitive comp guys will like it?

I'd sort of assume so - I've heard a few of them mention they don't like the current format, and as this theoretically rewards the rider who was actually riding the best on the day, it should be up their street?

[dk2]

Hi sounds like a great chilled comp format. Mmy geo of UK is not great, anybody has some GPS coordinates or similar(would like to fly in to London and go by train/bus there) In case of the nice Uk weather, not being nice is there anything close by to ride thats dry (think about comming over for a weekend)?

Awsome !!!

[AdamR28]

It's a long way for one weekend but you would be made very welcome!

Shipley Glen is quite far in the North: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=shipley+glen+to+london&saddr=shipley+glen&daddr=london&hl=en&sll=53.845745,-1.797887&sspn=0.010558,0.01929&geocode=FfGeNQMdAZHk_yH09QV3WfzvESkrqDd9XOR7SDH09QV3WfzvEQ%3BFSP1EQMd0RX-_yl13iGvC6DYRzGZKtXdWjqWUg&t=m&z=8

If you can fly to Leeds Bradford airport then that is much closer: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=shipley+glen+to+leeds+bradford+airport&saddr=shipley+glen&daddr=leeds+bradford+airport&hl=en&sll=52.677817,-0.962097&sspn=2.777912,4.938354&geocode=FfGeNQMdAZHk_yH09QV3WfzvESkrqDd9XOR7SDH09QV3WfzvEQ%3BFcL1NQMdBa_m_yHwHStGxTanCSlzhlYydlh5SDHwHStGxTanCQ&t=m&z=13, or even Manchester: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=shipley+glen+to+manchester+airport&saddr=shipley+glen&daddr=manchester+airport&hl=en&sll=53.859147,-1.727989&sspn=0.084435,0.154324&geocode=FfGeNQMdAZHk_yH09QV3WfzvESkrqDd9XOR7SDH09QV3WfzvEQ%3BFYQ_LgMdtk_d_yHgpeTlR4ILiynFk9jfwFJ6SDHgpeTlR4ILiw&t=m&z=10

Indoor riding isn't very common here in the UK, but the type of rock in this part of the country is really grippy so you can ride it in the rain.

[ben_travis]

I've put a date in my diary....

[paulotrialsrider]

Whilst this is a great idea and all, Ive never really got the "has to be appealing to the public eye" argument. Why does trials have to look good to the average Joe football lover?

A change in comp format sounds cool but I really couldn’t care less if the next "lad" to come along isn’t bowled over by me hoping up a rock.

I just see it as the more the public have trials knowledge, or more enjoyable to watch, the more likely it is to grow - the more likely other sponsors would get involved, more money into the sport etc. Plus to me this trial setup will eliminate strato or technical dabbing, and that by far is the worst part within a competition.

[isitafox]

No, the worst part is when you have a section where you have to make a dab to get through a certain part of it

[AdamR28]

^^ Agreed! The last comp I rode at Shipley there were a couple of gates that were impossible for me. They've have been ok if I was the other foot forward (or I was a better rider) but having to strato dab them felt 'wrong'. If I could have just done a green (rather than blue) gate at that point it'd have been ideal.

[isitafox]

Bet you're thinking of the same one as me!

[Blake]

Whilst this is a great idea and all, Ive never really got the "has to be appealing to the public eye" argument. Why does trials have to look good to the average Joe football lover?

A change in comp format sounds cool but I really couldn’t care less if the next "lad" to come along isn’t bowled over by me hoping up a rock.

I wouldn't say it's to get any geezer to be interested in comp riding, however it makes a nice event for people in my sort of situation. Where they just ride street but would like to give comp a go but obviously not turn up and make a moron of themselves at a big event. I liked it at radfest where they had the courses marked out like 2 years ago.

[eskimo]

Kind of, but at the same time kind of not. Because of the way it works, the current rule system effectively promotes people choosing dodgy lines (making the most of areas where sections aren't taped out fully, allowing people to take sneaky 'easy' lines where other riders will be trying to ride the route the way the organisers intended) and strategic dabs, both of which aren't particularly desirable. Seeing the way people rode some sections at the Antwerp World Cup made trials look pretty shit to me as a rider, and no doubt also to people watching it for the first time. I've also heard/seen/read complaints from other comp riders about the way some people choose to ride in that manner, complaints I'd fully agree with.

In contrast, this type of comp places more of an emphasis on riding your bike through a section, and trying to push yourself.

EDIT: Hopefully that didn't come across as a "f**k you and your opinion, Nick" haha - just thought I'd mention that side of things

I overlooked that part about cheating. I experienced it, and was just like, "what's even the point of riding?!" ...from there perspective, not mine. So this would help, but so would better lined out sections. But that can be difficult i know to do, when sections cross especially.

The whole dab and you're out thing i still think could be done better. Strategic dabbing again is just cheating in essence. Can't ride your bike? Use your foot instead! So it does address that which is especially good. But say you wheelspan like a retard or got your trouser caught cause you forgot to trouser clip (first section of the day), therefore put your foot down; hard luck, go queue for the next section. Highly depressing as the dab would also allow you to be like, "shame but it's only a point, i can try and clean this to make up for it".

I just think the whole competition trials needs an overhaul instead of a tweak.

Over the years i've often read "come to an event, it'll be fun". Cheaters, queue pushers among the other issues previously mentioned.

[AdamR28]

say you wheelspan like a retard or got your trouser caught cause you forgot to trouser clip (first section of the day), therefore put your foot down; hard luck, go queue for the next section. Highly depressing as the dab would also allow you to be like, "shame but it's only a point, i can try and clean this to make up for it".

I can empathise with that Couldn't think of a way to 'allow' that sort of situation without creating a grey area that some people would use to try and strato dab though

[paulotrialsrider]

No, the worst part is when you have a section where you have to make a dab to get through a certain part of it

Yeah, i guess so - it is very tricky however, i mean where then would you take marks? Putting rocks to suit one foot then the other just promotes bettering yourself? What doesn't promote it is standing on your tyre with one foot, hooking one under the bars and pulling the bike up, one foot on the rock, the other waving about in the air or on the toptube. Its just one guy make a nice big move and cleans it, another almost uses the bike as a ladder and comes away with a 1...something amiss!

But anyway, this trial eliminates all this and looks set to be good! Will there be a rider limit? As sometimes queuing if it isn't great weather won't be too enjoyable, riders and observers!

[Ross McArthur]

The way riders queue at comps means they can’t skip. You hand your card to the observer of the section, and he puts your name to the bottom of the pile, then you wait for your name to be called.

It’s at this point the socialising kicks in (that bit you like). You hang around like a fanny, watch a bunch of cheaters dab through the section and decide how you're going to imitate them. Your names called just as you're getting freezing and away you go.

[isitafox]

Yeah, i guess so - it is very tricky however, i mean where then would you take marks? Putting rocks to suit one foot then the other just promotes bettering yourself?

The section I'm referring to which I'm pretty certain is the same one Adam is above was at Shipley Glen last year. A large step with little to no run up and a rock right next to it so no matter what foot you ride forward you couldn't sidehop it, all you could do was ride straight up it but with the lack of a run up it was pretty much impossible so I'm sure every single rider on blue route had to put a foot down to get up the damn thing.

[eskimo]

I can empathise with that Couldn't think of a way to 'allow' that sort of situation without creating a grey area that some people would use to try and strato dab though

Without an overhaul i think it would be hard. And without massive complications too, which i know you've try to prevented too. Even with a time limit on a dab, it would make the observer's job a lot harder. The space between fun/ casual and competitive trials in a competitive environment is way to big and difficult to close. You could argue there's no room for fun in a competitive environment, but then we're just left with the current situation as it is. And with tgs street, people one upping each other a sidehop is different because it offers several different ways of doing the sidehop while to providing a clear winner.

The way riders queue at comps means they can’t skip. You hand your card to the observer of the section, and he puts your name to the bottom of the pile, then you wait for your name to be called.

It’s at this point the socialising kicks in (that bit you like). You hang around like a fanny, watch a bunch of cheaters dab through the section and decide how you're going to imitate them. Your names called just as you're getting freezing and away you go.

Except when the cards mysteriously get mixed up.

[AdamR28]

Will there be a rider limit? As sometimes queuing if it isn't great weather won't be too enjoyable, riders and observers!

There will be, yes. A) Because it's a tester, we need to have a high organiser:rider ratio to make sure it runs smoothly, B ) We'll probably only run 5 or 6 sections and C) for the reasons you said! This sort of thing, like Tarty Days, will never make money (or even break even) so we just want people to have a good day out.

The way riders queue at comps means they can’t skip. You hand your card to the observer of the section, and he puts your name to the bottom of the pile, then you wait for your name to be called.

It’s at this point the socialising kicks in (that bit you like). You hang around like a fanny, watch a bunch of cheaters dab through the section and decide how you're going to imitate them. Your names called just as you're getting freezing and away you go.

Summed up pretty well Ross!

The section I'm referring to which I'm pretty certain is the same one Adam is above was at Shipley Glen last year. A large step with little to no run up and a rock right next to it so no matter what foot you ride forward you couldn't sidehop it, all you could do was ride straight up it but with the lack of a run up it was pretty much impossible so I'm sure every single rider on blue route had to put a foot down to get up the damn thing.

Hmm, might have been a different bit - it was up top and was *just* side-hoppable for a right footer.

[Mark W]

I had quite a few similar "cards mysteriously getting mixed up" instances when I rode comps too, which was one of many reasons I chose to not do them any more.

[AdamR28]

Without an overhaul i think it would be hard. And without massive complications too, which i know you've try to prevented too. Even with a time limit on a dab, it would make the observer's job a lot harder.

I think you're right, yeah. However, the 'dab time limit' is an interesting one - hadn't considered that!

In this case we'll be having 2 observers per section, and at least one of those will be a rider so that would be possible to police, but going forward (if the format works and gets used again!) it'd be nice to change the organiser:rider ratio and have less observers. Cheers.

[isitafox]

Hmm, might have been a different bit - it was up top and was *just* side-hoppable for a right footer.

Yeah section 2, out of 23 riders only 2 managed the section clean once each though I can't be certain it was that part which caught them out (though me and Ben Swales asked the observer on our 2nd lap and they said no one had managed it)

[AdamR28]

I guess the idea is that it separates the best riders in the category from the not-quite-the-best, which is good. I know the winner of senior finished on 2 so he must have got through it somehow! I just - personally - would never go out to strato dab something so it made me when I had to so I could make it through that section.

[isitafox]

How the hell he did so well on that Zoot is mind blowing!

Anyway back on topic, I reckon this is definitely a potential way forward for more comps in the UK. I'd much prefer to do a trial like the old days where you spent more time actually riding through something than slowly hopping about.

British Cycling have already said that trials isn't a spectator sport which is why they have so little interest in it, would be great to see a UCI round taking place over here but without the backing of our own cycling federation that's never going to happen.

[eskimo]

I think you're right, yeah. However, the 'dab time limit' is an interesting one - hadn't considered that!

In this case we'll be having 2 observers per section, and at least one of those will be a rider so that would be possible to police, but going forward (if the format works and gets used again!) it'd be nice to change the organiser:rider ratio and have less observers. Cheers.

If the rules do change and the people who are going to this start becoming semi-regulars then it'll draw in more casual jeans wearing people too. At which point i'll start trying to ride them too

[AdamR28]

How the hell he did so well on that Zoot is mind blowing!

Anyway back on topic, I reckon this is definitely a potential way forward for more comps in the UK. I'd much prefer to do a trial like the old days where you spent more time actually riding through something than slowly hopping about.

British Cycling have already said that trials isn't a spectator sport which is why they have so little interest in it, would be great to see a UCI round taking place over here but without the backing of our own cycling federation that's never going to happen.

Indeed - good riders are good on whatever they ride!

Yeah, BC have been less than supportive which is a shame. At the Biketrial AGM in January we asked for a 'Trials' link *anywhere* on the site, just to link to BTUK page, but nothing yet. They list pretty much every other cycling discipline (including speedway, 'commuting' and 'sportive' (??!)) but not trials. They also expressed the opinion that we are 'self-sufficient' from looking at the accounts, so we didn't need any help...

The BIU world round cost about £30k to put on (not to mention the amount of time spent behind the scenes!) so it would indeed be impossible to put on an event like a UCI world round without some serious backing.

Maybe one day...!

[dann2707]

I re-read the rules properly last night and didn't realise you're not allowed any dabs what so ever?!

I'm definitely out then, not even allowed one strategic dab. Please?